TheGh0st

Monk - the "D" in DH can also be substituted for a myriad of other words beginning with "D" depending on the context.:heh:

I couldn't have said it better. I am NO saint. Monk it is you that is an inspiration to me, I feel humbled by the obstacles you have overcome and the positive influence you are for so many. - Diane

Good luck, keep us(me) posted

Nina - No offense taken nor did I think you were questioning my faith. I am really glad you have joined in this board. It is good to get a wide range of views here. Monk - I completely respect your position and would never presume to believe it my place to tell you that you should feel or behave any differently. I hope you don't think I was trying to push my religious beliefs onto you or anyone else. I actually hesitated posting the biblical quote for fear it might be insensitive to some but decided that by not posting it I would have been behaving more as if I was ashamed of my faith.

Nina, I am not trying to argue with you either. I find your posts very supportive, meaningful and completely appropriate to this topic. I hope to see many more posts from you. When it comes right down to it we may be in much more of an agreement than it first appears. I think it may be more a matter of definition, before posting this response I decided to look up the actual definition of “forgive” on the internet. Below are several definitions I found. Definitions for Forgive: (as found over the internet) 1. to release (a person) from liability for an offense. 2. to free a person from their guilt, or blame, or from their consequences 3. to cease to feel resentment against The first two are the definition I always thought of and were/are the reason I am unwilling to say that I have “forgiven” my abusers. But the 3rd definition “to cease to feel resentment against” was a definition I had never heard before for “forgive”, and I have ceased to feel any resentment towards them years ago. I am still uncomfortable using the word forgiveness for how I feel towards them but I do believe that my ability to embrace that 3rd definition was a necessary step in healing. Yes, I am an active Christian, though I do not claim to be a “perfect” one for truly no one can be. And sometimes, yes, my refusal to state I’ve “forgiven” my transgressors does strike me as possibly not what Jesus taught. Then again in the parable below it is interesting to note the servant that was forgiven by the king was not forgiven until he fell down and begged for it, though I highly doubt that was the message I was suppose to take from it. Quote: Matthew 18:20-35 (New Living Translation) Parable of the Unforgiving Debtor 21 Then Peter came to him and asked, “Lord, how often should I forgive someone who sins against me? Seven times?” 22 “No, not seven times,” Jesus replied, “but seventy times seven! 23 “Therefore, the Kingdom of Heaven can be compared to a king who decided to bring his accounts up to date with servants who had borrowed money from him. 24 In the process, one of his debtors was brought in who owed him millions of dollars. 25 He couldn’t pay, so his master ordered that he be sold—along with his wife, his children, and everything he owned—to pay the debt. 26 “But the man fell down before his master and begged him, ‘Please, be patient with me, and I will pay it all.’ 27 Then his master was filled with pity for him, and he released him and forgave his debt. 28 “But when the man left the king, he went to a fellow servant who owed him a few thousand dollars. He grabbed him by the throat and demanded instant payment. 29 “His fellow servant fell down before him and begged for a little more time. ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it,’ he pleaded. 30 But his creditor wouldn’t wait. He had the man arrested and put in prison until the debt could be paid in full. 31 “When some of the other servants saw this, they were very upset. They went to the king and told him everything that had happened. 32 Then the king called in the man he had forgiven and said, ‘You evil servant! I forgave you that tremendous debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Shouldn’t you have mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had mercy on you?’ 34 Then the angry king sent the man to prison to be tortured until he had paid his entire debt. 35 “That’s what my heavenly Father will do to you if you refuse to forgive your brothers and sisters from your heart.”

I completely respect your opinion. For myself however, I have let go of my anger and even hatred but I haven't forgiven either of the violators. I personally can't get my head around forgiving someone that doesn't believe they need to be forgiven much less have any desire to ask for it. For myself I feel that letting go of the anger, shame and guilt was enough. I only mention this as my mom continues to preach that forgiving the violators is an absolute must whether or not they want it. She believes I'm only deluding myself in saying that I have moved on if I don't forgive them. I am NOT implying that you have said or hinted at any such thing and am not offended by your post. But I still wanted to post that I didn't feel the forgiveness had been necessary for me in my own situation. I wholeheartedly agree with you on this. Again I don't expect everyone to follow the same path as myself but the more I am willing to talk openly about my past the less power it has over me. I try to talk as openly about what has happened to me to anyone, anywhere, treating it as no more taboo a subject as a horrible car accident or illness such as cancer. Yes it is a sensitive subject but by being quiet and hiding its existence in my past it increases my chance of feeling somehow responsible if only in part for the abuse. This behaviour has caused tension at times with other family members as one of the violators was a relative.

Hey Chantay, Glad you posted. I wish this board were more active as well. Congrats on the weight loss. You are doing great! Any interest in joining me walking either Monday nights in Olathe or Thursday nights around Zona Rosa? - Diane

Absolutely beautiful Monk!

iluvamc - do you mind saying how much the surgery cost for your thighs and where you had it done? I'm in the Kansas Area and the one doc I went to was quoting around 7.5K just for the thighs.

I'm terrible. I still haven't got around to getting a photo taken for proof. But a couple months ago I saw a show about a SKINNY woman with some exess skin from multiple pregnancies. Her stomach skin didn't look anything like ours, it looked more like the old "elephant" ankles of sagging nylons if you know what I mean. The show said there was no scientific backing for this but that they gave her an intense massage for 8 weeks. They didn't say if the massages were 15-min or 1-hour sessions or if they were daily or weekly. But in the after shot her skin was completely tight again with no sagging. So I decided to test it on just one arm. I "massage" my left arm as vigorously as I can at least once a day usually just for a couple of minutes at a time. I rub the underneath with my knuckles like you might knuckle rub a kids head. And I also rub the back of my arms with my fingers. I try to rub hard enough to actually turn the skin red. Like I said I only do it for a couple minutes at a time. For example I will do it watching TV, at a red light in traffic, or in the shower while letting the conditioner set. After just 3 days I could already see a difference and within 2 weeks my left arm was 1-inch smaller than my right. It's now about 1-1/2" smaller but doesn't seem to be shrinking anymore. Though I have been remiss in massaging it lately. My left arm is by no means small now but it does look a little less unsightly to me. I will try to get my husband to snap a couple shots this week so I can post something next week. I'd love to have someone else give it a try and let me know the results. I wish I could figure out how to do this to my thighs or stomach as well but its just not possible to do it to yourself in those areas with the necessary pressure and I have yet to convince my husband to do it for me. I tried to convince him it could be considered foreplay but for some reason he didn't bite.

OFF TOPIC! I have been lurking and occasionally posting on this thread from the start with my own intimacy issues with my husband. But the more I read this thread the more I'm feeling convicted that I'm guilty of some of the same issues we are having with our DH's but in regards to my relationship with my mother. I thought I'd go ahead and share this with you as it is possible some of our DH's are also struggling with some of the same feelings as I am. I know I worked myself into a corner with my mother years ago. In fact I'm embarrassed to admit it was over 20 years ago now back in early high school. I had finally "bloomed" into a very well endowed young lady and my new found chest was an alien object to me. And the thought of hugging ANY other female was just too much for me. The whole thought of the feeling of my new breasts against someone else's breasts wierded me out to no end. My mom couldn't understand why I was all of a sudden so unwilling to hug her. I tried explaining it to her but she didn't seem to believe me and thought something else might be wrong like an abusive boyfriend or sexual abuse. She would go so far as to try to walk in on me changing my clothes at home or in clothing stores to see if she could find any bruising. That behaviour didn't help any as if I was uncomfortable feeling my chest against another women's I was even more upset at anyone seeing them. It all came to a head one day when she thought she could "cure" me with some tough love and literally chased me all around the house trying to force a hug out of me. She thought if she could just hold me long enough I'd get over my phobia. In the end I was standing in the bathtub arms outstreched crying, yelling, begging her to leave me alone. Since then I was even more unwilling to hug, if that was possible. She continued to try to force them on me after I went to college especially in public places where she thought she might coerce me into giving into a hug rather than causing a scene. It only pissed me off more at the thought of what I saw as her disrespect for my feelings. It actually took me nearly 10 years to finally get used to hugging another female, but those females are my inlaws and other female friends. Not my mother or by extension my sister who I also don't hug out of some warped respect for the fact that it would hurt my mother to see me hug my sister but not her. To this day it takes everything in me not to physically cringe when she initiates a hug. And though I do grudgingly allow it I know she can tell I'm uncomfortable touching her. And I never initiate one myself. Which is very sad because I love her dearly. I live 300 miles away but we talk nearly every other day. And other than this one issue which in all fairness really shouldn't have been a big issue she has never abused me physically or emotionally. I would really like to be able to hug my mother openly, I know I'm unfairly hurting her. But it's become such a big "elephant" hiding in the room. That I'm still actually afraid to show much of a response when she tries to hug me or worse initiate the hug myself for fear that she would break down with tears of joy and not let go for so long it might take another 20 years before I tried to hug her again. But even though she is not old in my eyes. She is not getting any younger and I would hate myself even more if I wasn't able to get over this foolishness before it was too late. I tried once to tell her if she would stop trying to hug me I would make the effort to hug her. I feel if she would only allow me to come to her on my terms I could slowly get back to where we once were so many years ago but I'm still scared she won't be willing to make the baby steps that I need. I am going to be seeing her this weekend. And am going to try to remain convicted enough to give her a genuine hug initiated by me. And pray that my fears are unfounded and that she doesn't start crying and refuse to let go until I pry her off me. Wish me luck.

Kitty - I know it is probably one of the scariest things to do considering the situation right now. But I also agree that the next time he says something nice while you are "sleeping". Let him know you are awake, maybe just say something like "I love you too dear" without trying to start a conversation. You never know maybe he is secretly hoping you really are awake, but at the same time afraid of the flood gates that his comment might open. By flood gates I guess I mean long serious conversations he may not be willing to have yet or renewed attempts at physical contact he is also not yet willing to accept.

Robyn I'm glad to hear your surgery is done. I'm so sorry you've had to go through all these struggles.

:high5:Regina - I also wanted to thankyou for your post. Your story sounds so similar to mine, all except the turn around ofcourse. I'm still too scared to take that step for fear he will call my bluff. Though I'm getting closer & closer to wondering if it would be a bluff as well. Here's to the rest of us finding a method and the courage to find a path that works for us as well. Wherever that path may take us. - Diane

I appreciate everyone's comments re:life being too short to be with someone who doesn't treat us right. I have NOT been offended by anyone who has made that argument nor do I want to offend them for what I'm about to say. However, you have to remember this board is discussing one issue within a marriage, Intimacy. And though that is a very important aspect of a relationship it is just ONE part of what makes up the very large and complicated beast we call marriage. If everyone left their partners just because they were not getting every aspect of their relationship right, I firmly believe the divorce rate would be closer to 99% than the already poor 50+% it is now. As their are precious few if any people out their much less couples that are always on their best behaviour in all aspects of their life. Marriage is not always pretty and most of the time it is down right hard work (and dare I say... full of mutual compromises). There is nothing wrong with us venting here, it's good for us. And I'm not trying to say that everyone should just stay with their spouses no matter what. I'm just saying its not always best to cut and run when the going gets tough. For me the lack of non-bedroom intimacy is just one of a handfull of problems between my DH & I. Compared to the list of good things that also come with this relationship I still feel its worth fighting for.

Badonkadonkbut - I can so relate!!! Other than your specifics about kids/pets I could have written your post. I know that most of the people here are posting that they want more sex, But our lack of intimacy outside the bedroom is as much a problem. I will say I did try putting the brakes on sex early on in our marriage when it became clear he wasn't good at all the important aspects of intimacy outside the bedroom (communication, respect, touches, looks, etc.) And I would get SO very mad at people that would suggest that a good wife would just shut up and put out (always said in a nicer more "christian" way ofcourse) And I still don't like that idea but sometimes I wonder if by learning to settle for only being "close" to him in bed has turned me into just that person. Don't get me wrong I do enjoy the time we spend together having sex, and it's only getting better as I shrink. BUT neither my willingness to "participate" or my loss of weight haven't improved our relationship outside the bedroom in any way. Sometimes I still think of pulling back and trying to find another way to get him to open up outside the bedroom.

All this talk about sleeping naked is fine. But for me the only problems we've had in the bedroom have been more my lack of desire not his. But my lack of desire is a direct result of a lack of intimacy outside the bedroom. So, maybe I ought to just try running around the house naked after our son goes to bed and see if that sparks some intimacy outside the bedroom.

Sorry Chantay. The pic didn't work and I'm not sure how to do it. Just wanted to say hi back at you. This board has been too quiet lately.

Thanks for the info. I really want to do this and am not too worried about the pain. More worried about work firing me if I can't get back in a reasonable time. Maybe even more worried that my husband won't let me go back for the additional nips/tucks I want after the first one. I'm looking at: Tummy Tuck, Breast Reduction, Arms & Inner Thighs Depending on where I look it appears this will be at least 2 if not 4 surgeries. I have been playing with a Physical therapy technique I saw on a TV show to try to help improve my arms without surgery. I can post pics & a description of what I did for anyone interested. I've been doing it for 2 weeks to just my left arm (to see if it really worked) and there is already a 1-inch difference between the two. But even though it is better it still doesn't look good enough for me not to want surgery.

I've fantasized about asking him to use a tool but am too embarrased to ask and when he does use fingers or the rare occasion mouth (OMG I can't believe I said that) I can't stop thinking about how it might hurt him that I get so much more pleasure from that than from the actual sex, so I hold back and still don't climax. I really do think a lot our problems revove around my own hang-ups with my body image. So the option of looking for someone else really wouldn't help much. I know his lack of intimacy outside the bedroom doesn't help, but then again some of that may stem from my own image problems. After all there are only so many times any partner can try to re-assure you over a 14+ year marriage before they just quit trying. I know I should seek counseling but that opens a whole other area of issues with my father and the fact he was/is a counselor. Making me not too fond of working with any counselor. I'm hoping that somehow after the Plastic Surgery and with help from boards like this one I can get over my own body image issues without "professional" help. Then maybe I'll just have to start walking around the house naked, maybe that would help outside the bedroom. Rewind, that might not be a great idea with a 3-1/2 yr old son. Well, maybe after he goes to bed then, we could always tie a bell to his door and keep a robe nearby:D

OK if I'm going to be posting here I suppose I ought to tell my story. My DH & I have an adequate sex life if you go by count. 1-2 times per week is the norm at the moment. And as the weight has come off it has been better, at least he thinks so. But, I can't believe I'm telling anyone this but in our 14 years I've only reached an orgasm during sex once. Though to be honest despite being way to active pre-marriage I never had one then either. Mechanical means seem to be the only sure method for me. And my husband thinks they are wrong. He had a self proclaimed problem with porn addition when he was younger and hates all things related to porn. Personally I feel that is just normal male behaviour but it's his hang up. I on the other hand have a problem letting go during sex. I'm alternately obsessing over how horrible I think my boddy looks with all the extra skin (formerly weight), or thinking about how silly I sound when I do start to get excited that it ruins my mood. My other and to me bigger problem with the whole intimacy thing is outside of the bedroom. My husband is not a touchy person. He never just holds my hand or hugs me spontaneously. I always have to initiate it and even then he always gives me one of those "do I have to" looks and pulls away the first chance he gets. Nor is he vocal with his affection. He says "I love you" all the time but it always means "Whatever, maybe if I say I love you she'll go away and leave me alone" or something similar. The lack of intimacy outside of the bedroom makes it that much harder to feel like his interest in having sex is something he really wants to have with me or wether I'm just a convienent outlet for him. I use to refuse to have sex with him when we first married because of this and we would sometimes go 1-2 months without sex and even when we did he knew I didn't really want to. But now I've learned to just do it even if I'm not feeling like it's really me he wants more than the sex, in the hopes that at somepoint he will either really want me or I will realize that he has all along and it was my own hang-ups about the weight that fooled me into thinking he didn't really want me. I should probably re-read this to see if any of it was coherent but if I do I'll just delete it, so here goes.

For those that are still curios. One Stone is 14 pounds. That would put your starting weight at 268 and current at 182. You look fantastic!!! I am just starting the process of getting consults for my TT and breast reduction. I'm curious though, do you work? Have you gone back to work yet or feel you could if you had to? I have a desk job as a bookeeper but won't get any paid time off for the surgery so ever day I miss is costing me more money.

OK mine doesn't plug into the wall, but I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one that has used a massager for other purposes. Mine is a Walgreens back masager that lights up red. I'm always living in fear of my husband catching me with the red glow and all! I'd like to get something a bit more substantial but am too embarrased to go into a store alone or to buy one online. I even have a hidden DVD for those rare occasions he & our son go out of town.

Thankyou for the update. That is a long time to wait in so much pain. You would think he could get someone who isn't banded yet to postpone their surgery a few days. I'll keep you in my prayers.

OK Robyn, Where are you? How did the appointment go? Are you alright or are you not posting because you are in the hospital? Angela have you heard from her? I'm worried.