ELENATION

LOL! Jack has a way with words for sure....! and obviously you too Plain..I love it!!!!!!!!!

I'm very sorry that he is going through this, it saddens me and I do wish him the best and a full recovery, he sure deserves it.

hhhmmm.... that is a concern of mine, I see Obama as "The Aprentice" let's cross our fingers that he does a good job...:embaressed_smile:

Dereck where have you been? I've missed your posts...:embaressed_smile:

Conservative, not ultra-conservative though.... Chris NJ, nice to see you posting!

Well, this war has been budgeted, whether we agree with the budget is a different story , the cost of this war has been high, but during other major conflicts in history the relative cost has been as high.

Yes I know and I understand, but I don't think that's why McCain didn't say he was against that part of the bill "because of how much it would cost", I honestly believe that he was taking everything into consideration before he fully agreed with that part of the bill or considered other incentives instead, I'm sorry, but I don't believe his intentions were to hurt the military/veterans and mainly because he is a veteran himself, plus the fact that agreeing with every detail of the bill and just going with it would've been much easier and popular for him right now , but instead he was honest about the way he felt and he is proposing other incentives which can be as good and at the same time will encourage our military personal to join and stay in the military, it does makes sense to me IMHO. I'm not sure if the outcome would have been perfect or not, but I do believe the intention was honest.

I hear you BJ, and I agree with much of what you are saying . I believe that GI Bill is a generous one and has a comprehensive education benefits package though, but there will always be room for improvement to help and honor our military/vets and most definitely I'm for it, but this is an issue that needs to be budgeted like everything else.

We are their bosses. I liked this one BJ! :thumbup:

Well, there is concern that such an expansive GI Bill would create an incentive for troops to get out of the military... it could deplete retention rates among those currently serving in the military, from what I understand, they are working on an alternative to the bill that would provde incentives to join and stay in the military, I personally will look deeper to understand the issue more.., when McCain came out and said how he felt about this bill I'm sure he knew it could affect him during the campaign because the democrats would use it against him, (No offense guys, I'm referring to the democratic party here..)at least I give him credit for being honest about it and not just doing or saying what looked or sounded better, that's why I believe when he said that this was more than just a convenient campaign pledge for him, him being a veteran/POW I kind of believe he had earned the right to make that claim..... ok...do I sound biased?? :tongue2:Nah!

Oh No you didn't!!!:thumbup: I'll fight you! :cool2::smile:

Thank you for the explanation about the proposal, like I said before, I'm no expert on the subject, but I can see where they are coming from and actually I think it's pretty fair, he is not refusing educational benefits, the more I've learned about it, the more I believe that when Obama said he couldn't believe why McCain thought the bill was "too generous" to our veterans , Obama was just throwing a political punch , because it is clearly not what McCain was stating.

I enjoy listening to Limbaugh and GLenn Beck, that doesn't mean that I agree with everything they say, I hated when they were urging republicans not to vote for McCain and stay away from the polls, I could see why they felt that way, being that they are ultra conservatives and orthodox republicans, but I didn't agree with the method they were using to deliver their message,on other subjects I think they are right on:huh2:. THere are plenty of Michael Moore lovers out there who think he is a genious...yeah, scary...

Thanks for those words BJ! and I can tell you are speaking from your heart and I appreciate that even if we can't agree, I feel like you, I try to be open minded, but it's hard, but I'm going to keep trying, darn it! for the sake of the good discussion!:thumbup:

I could be mistaken but I don't think he was pro-choice, iI think he was always pro-life and in 1999 he said he thought Roe v. Wade should be overturned because he would support exceptions to a ban on abortion in cases of rape, incest, and when the mother’s life is in danger, if I have this information right, this is a change of mind/heart, but I understand that when a politician does it, it looks like a flip flop, in reality, many people change their minds throughout their lifetimes about many things. He expressed his concerns for the GI Bill only regarding this particular issue and backed up his opinion explaining the reason why he felt that way, I'm sorry, but I don't see that as a flip flop, like I said, I think it's nomal that people reconsider issues as they learn more about them. About the RNC, honestly I'm not too familiar with that whole issue, but I will do my homework... what I do know is that politicians, from the left and the right are notorious for accepting contributions from wherever they can get it when they need it, it's not right, but very common, the most recent one from the left...Mrs.Clinton.. :cool2: and it's a good thing you brought up these points, it makes the discussion interesting, thanks!:thumbup:

I'm not sure about that though... way after he was the front runner we had Limbaugh and Glenn Beck telling people not to vote for McCain still... I'm sure that if McCain would've been showing his "true" orthodox republican side, they would've stopped saying it... Ann Coulter was still claiming that she would vote for Hillary before she voted for McCain and there are still plenty of conservative republicans that are not happy with McCain for his too "liberal" ways...which I call moderate... in fact my concern for McCain is that some republicans will stay home away from the polls because the fact that he is a different kind of republican. I won't be doing that, I find him refreshing.

Oh BJean, let's not get ugly here.. this discussion has been pretty good so far.. I hope I didn't cross the line and if I did I apologize, love the discussion, but really don't want to fight. I could be wrong but I don't believe McCain said that Obama shouldn't speak of foreing policy, but rather than Obama has no experience in foreign policy, which is the truth, maybe it's a matter or perception when we hear what they say, so therefore I don't think is BS, Hillary said the same thing about Obama, I agree with her and I'm not a democrat, I don't think is insulting or hateful, I think it's an opinion ,which happens to be insulting to some democrats because they obviously support Obama and everything he does or says, I can understand that, if Obama said something like that about McCain even if it was true, I'm sure most republicans wouldn't like it.. but the truth is the truth, even when it hurts your side or mine, I'm not claiming that mine is perfect and yours is bad by the way, they are just different. I can see the concern behind the GI bill, I'm not an expert and would have to learn more about it, but I definitely see the point McCain was trying to make. See, I'm not extremely wealthy, but I just happen to disagree that "those individuals" are affecting me with their "greedy frasp for power". I simply don't believe that to be true and I don't agree with it, but I promise I will do more research. So far I've been a republican for almost 30 years since I've lived in this country, started out as the poor to lower working class and have made it to middle class and I'm quiet satisfied with those accomplishments and most I have accomplished during the republican terms, no problem there... I hope I can make it to the wealthy one day... but doubt it... I'm a spender, not so great with money:eek: I'm not aware that Bush disrespected Obama to our allies and enemies alike... if you are referring to the fact that Bush denounced those who would negotiate with terrorists and radicals , sure it was a remark interpreted as a rebuke to Obama, only because Obama has said that the United States should consider talking with countries like Iran and Syria, I personally don't think Obama should've said that or even consider it, I find it offensive, disrespectful myself, but oh well, Obama and Bush both have the right to say what they feel, even when they make us mad... neither Obama as a possible president of the US should be ridiculed, nor Bush as the president of the US should be ridiculed, but it happens all the time unfortunately.. McCain filling Bush's shoes... hardly.... not that it would bother me if he did, but McCain has faced skepticism among republicans themselves, his maverick style, his willingness to work with democrats, his often deviation from republican orthodoxy, his advocacy of comprehensive immigration reform , all points to someone not cut from the traditional party mold. BJ I respect your opinion, I mean it, I really do, but on this one, we are just going to agree to disagree, hey you are a democrat and I'm a republican, there is not going to be much we can agree on this subject, even though I've seen you and I agree quiet nicely on other subjects, It's all cool.

Well, as far as I heard, McCain said that in all due respect, he believed that Obama does not understand the elemental, fundamental elements of national security and warfare, that Obama has no experience or background in any of that and said the American voters will eventually see the same. In my humble opinion, McCain was expressing the way he feels about this issue and Obama, Obama's spokeman answered pretty quick to this comment and as tough as McCain's, so really, what's wrong with that? this is a running for the precidency and both sides debate, discuss and yes, often attack each other, it's the political game, and has always been that way, is that the best or perfect way to do it? Probably not, but the attacks have always come from left and right, not just one side , in this particular case, I don't see it as an attack, I thought it was McCain expressing his opinion, which obviously it's not going to be appealing to democrats, duh? which by the way I have to agree with it at some level, Obama has little if any experience in foreign policies, I'm aware that experience doesn't necessarily equate with leadership though, from a republican stand point, I think other democrats such as Bill Richardson or Chris Dodd had more experience than Clinton and Obama combined, but they didn't seem to appeal to the voters.. About the GI Bill... the concern or fear was that the benefits will lure soldiers and sailors into the civilian world and hurt the military retention. McCain even said that the office comes with serious responsibilities and we can't always take the politically easy route without hurting the country you are sworn to defend, he said his opinion on this subject was more than a convenient campaign pledge, hey I can't argue with that... So there, we all can defend our side and our candidates, things are taken out of context in both sides. On this issue, Obama could've said that he didn't agree with the president on the opposition to the GI Bill, he didn't have to bring up McCain or say that "McCain thought it was too generous to the veterans", come on, that's not what McCain said at any time, but then again, this is a political game, so Obama felt like saying that... and that's ok, now,after that you better believe that McCain was going to fire back... again, part of the game... About serving in the military..I personaly have the utmost respect for ALL who served honorably, I think it's a great merit to say the least, but I won't vote for someone just based on that fact alone. I remember John Kerry, he served, then denounced his purple heart and led the march for other vets to discard and denounce theirs too in a mass ANTI-War protest in the 1960's...not so honorable I think.... OK, I'm done for now... take it easy on me now fellow dems!

Agree with Plain, and with the Flag code, but also agree that he was distracted and it was not intentional... even if he didn't want follow the code, he knew it could hurt him , so it would've been stupid to do it on purpose, nope, he was distracted... I admit that it looks bad though... But I know that along the way, both Obama and McCain will do things that "look" bad or "sound" bad when more than likely they did it or said it without the intention of offending anybody, so I'm cutting him some slack... but I expect the same from the fellow dems should something go wrong with McCain at some point ok?:smile:

Well, what came out of your mouth was right on! your daughter is a lucky girl! DOn't blame you for being cynical, I'm too often, I used to be more believing...

Gloucester your statements above are so perfect... I want to be able to express myself like that when I grow up:rolleyes:

Hi BJ, I appreciate the mutual respect, thank you so much, it's the best way to have a good discussion. I have heard mixed opinions about Canada's health care, as well as some countries in Europe, I personally know two people that came to the US , one from Canada, one from Germany to have their surgeries here, one was a hip replacement surgery and I can't remember the other one now, I know that Green is getting great care and for that I'm so happy, so I can't be sure if their health care it's great or not, so I won't argue about that and I haven't experienced it myself, so I couldn't say if it is better or worse than ours, I've experienced ours and I like it, in my own particular case I've always worked since I'm 17 years old and have always paid for health care for me and my family through my employer and has always worked ok for us and I really can't complaint, but I'm aware that is not the case for everyone, I know that there are people that can't afford to pay it, I'm middle class, not even upper middle, middle working class... and I've done it, but I'm sure it's difficult for some, I don't think our health care is flawless of course, but I don't like universal health care either, based on my own experience and the basic concept of it, I won't deny that living under such system for years makes me a little biased...for me and my family it was far from a decent exprience......I don't have the perfect solution for the best health care for our nation, heck, not even some experts have it and Lord knows I'm no expert...it's complicated. I work in the insurance industry and it will not be positive for the company I work for, but that's a whole different topic/story... and it's irrelevant now, plus has nothing to do with the way I feel about this. About Cuba.... I still have family there and friends, so I do know how things are there today in many aspects, and sure things have changed... for the worst....if you think our health care is bad, gee... I don't even know what to say here or how to say it.... but I can try, in Cuba is 1000 times worse, actually, there is no comparison, there, that's more accurate to say, we can't compare our health care system with Cuba's... Health care in Cuba is actually atrocious. It's free due to state provision, yes, but the average cuban citizen gets extremely poor regular and emergency care. Not only I experienced it and have loved ones that are there and are experiencing it, but thousands of cuban refugees have stated and often with documentation, that they were neglected or passed over due to the system's enormous deficiencies. I'm saying this using a few "nice" words , but if I was to say it simpler, well, I will tell you that there are very limited medications available to the people, unless you hold a big position in the government, and I mean even basic medications, more sophisticated ones are non-existent for the people, no a/c in the hospitals or fans, toilets are clogged and overflowing with feces, urine.. never enough room availables, no clean sheets, doctors and nurses don't provide decent care/service because they are tired, tired of making $200 a month and walking miles everyday to get to work and hey, can we blame them? they don't care and they have no incentive at all, and I can go on and on...Yes, people do die in Cuba everyday for lack of decent health care, there is no ambulance service, at all, very few own a vehicle there, so if you have a heart attack at home, someone will have to start running around the neighborhood to hopefully find someone that owns an old beat up car from the 50's and would do you the favor of taking you to a hospital, and you are lucky it the car makes it to the hospital without falling apart in the process, pay that person for the gas and the avarage salary in Cuba is extremelly low and many times people just don't have money, if you actually happen to know someone who owns a vehicle, but it's far, you may not be able to call them either, there is no telephone service available for a big part of the population in Cuba, by the time you get to the hospital after having a heart attack at home, you are dead. That happens in a daily basis there, sad isn't it? It evens sounds exagerated right? I really wish that was the case from the bottom of my heart...yet, when Moore shows up with his cameras and his boats, miraculously the Cuban regime is providing high quality health care to its people...a big lie....basically, if I came to your house for one week and filmed you, I could either make you look like the model american family, or a dysfunctional family, depending on the footage I choose to use. It's basic media ethics and Moore chooses to disgregard them. I do understand where you are coming from with Limbaugh, and if despite the fact that you can't stand him you still can see that there has to be an element of truth somewhere around somethings he says, then I will compromise to pay a little attention to Moore in the future, and see if I can say the same one day... I did at the beginning, I wanted to hear his points of view, but after the first hour and seeing the way he conducted himsef, I gave up on him and stopped paying attention, unless he is in the news and I hear what they talk about him, I just disregard him now, but ok, you and I can make this Moore/Limbaugh compromise...and see if we can learn something.:thumbup: About the drilling, I do see your point and I'm not saying you are wrong and I'm right, I think your heart is in the right place and your ideas are good too, but not so easy to implement without our taxes going higher, but there may be other options, I know that environmentalism and drilling is going to be controversial, the way I see it, drilling ANWR or any other location will not completely solve the problem but so far the talking and no action has gotten us no where, we can minimize the risk that comes with developing proven technology (drilling) that offers a good probability of attaining the goal and we can work on the unproven technologies at the same time and with luck eventually become independent of foreign countries or at least reduce our dependance on oil, but we can agree to disagree on this one. BJ, I 100% agree that we can make things even better for our country , hey at least we are here talking about it , that means we care and that's a good sign, and I too have learned very much from your posts and everyone's and I also appreciate it!:rolleyes2:

I see your point Plain, though I think it will not run out easily, byt maybe eventually, but at least we do something now that could benefit us if not forever, for a very long time, and while we do that, I definitely think we can pursue other options to get off oil, that would be a good thing, but not easy either, so for now why not doing both and try every way that we can to help ourselves, completely agree with you on the fact that since the Carter administration and after that, we should've been looking for better options.

Gee, I've never seen this thread before, but Plain you nailed it, "super classy" :thumbup: and like someone else said, moronic and stupid too.... sometimes I just don't get some people.....most of the times...:rolleyes2:

LilMissBand, I also hate to get into these discussions because like you said, they are so touchy, I feel like we all state our views but ultimately it's hard to agree, I believe that this issue has been there before Reagan...but I do agree with you in one thing, I can't believe that people don't see the truth, I know I have READ, READ AND READ AND WILL KEEP READING, I like you hope that we all keep researching and opening our eyes to the truth, even if it's to find out that we still can't agree...:smile2: