I was just wondering what everyone thinks about the proposed changes in the laws for people that are here illegally. Do you think they should be given amnesty and legal status? Deported? What about their children who are born here and therefore are U.S. citizens? It just seems to me that to start out your life in a new country by breaking it's laws isn't right. What do you all think?

Are you a member of the KKK,, the only true four fathers were indians,,,Did the pilgrams speak english when they landed..you guys are getting out of hand with this thread:omg: :angry

"Forefathers" usually means the early framers of our Constituation, the early settlers of the U.S., or our early blood relatives...so for most of us our forefathers are not "indians." This is the Rants and Raves section where people need to feel free to state their opinion without being called a "member of the KKK" or anything similiar. Your hostility is what appears to be "getting out of hand." Please don't take someone's stand on an open opinion poll as a personal attack. You can state your feelings about this subject just like anyone else and I am sure you wouldn't want to be called names if and when you do.

I don;t know much about Canada what minority group are you referring to?:ranger:

To tell you the truth, vallin, I am a politickally correct and sensitive Canadian and thus I find that I cannot bring myself to name the minority group/s who have a tougher time of making a success of life in Canada, specifically urban Canada (for this is where most new immigrants now come) for fear of stigmatising this/these group/s on LBT. I wouldn't want to be responsible for LBT folk thinking dismissive or unkind thoughts about entire groups of individuals. But the fact that some of our new citizens have many more problems becoming successful citizens is an issue in my large and multicultural city. And we Canadians are far too polite and far too sensitive to point this out and ask why.

I really am sorry that my answer to your question is so vague but this is the best that I can do. :phanvan

LRBloom8: Well said comments about name-calling and personal attacks!

LRBloom8: Well said comments about name-calling and personal attacks!

Thank you, BJean, for the nice comment. I am glad you and I always find a way to end our "discussions" on a high note!

LRBloom8: I've always thought that you must be a genuinely nice person.

One of my very best friends in the world is a very hard core Republican. We've had some extremely heated discussions. She is completely against the government giving "hand outs" to the down trodden in our country.

She thought that the war in Iraq was the right thing to do because it would give the rest of the world a taste of what they can expect if they cross us.

She even believes that we should lace confiscated drugs with arsenic and then we'd be rid of all the druggies that are committing crimes to feed their habits.

She thinks all Americans should own guns and be able to carry concealed weapons. (She does.) Her husband was a special ops guy - very secret - and has photos of himself with 5 presidents signed with things like "Thanks for a job well done for America."

She thinks that we don't use capital punishment enough. She's all for the three strikes law and thinks that it should be adopted everywhere, but instead of incarcerating the culprits, she thinks we should remove them from the face of the earth. Sort of a 3 strikes and you're dead policy.

I could go on, but you get the point. She's very conservative - rabidly so. And I love her to pieces. She actually has a good heart, hates injustice and she's very smart.

I couldn't disagree with her more than I do already, politically. But we respect each other and most of the time we just steer clear of political issues. I should probably do that here at LBT, but I keep coming back to it and getting involved because I believe just as strongly in my own thoughts and ideas and ideals, and it is great to be able to have a voice, at least somewhere, and state my opinions.

I do find it very interesting to read opposing viewpoints. :rolleyes

In my 3rd paragraph I meant to say lace confiscated drugs with arsenic and then recirculate them and it would get rid of the druggies, etc.

LRBloom8: I've always thought that you must be a genuinely nice person.

One of my very best friends in the world is a very hard core Republican. We've had some extremely heated discussions. She is completely against the government giving "hand outs" to the down trodden in our country.

She thought that the war in Iraq was the right thing to do because it would give the rest of the world a taste of what they can expect if they cross us.

She even believes that we should lace confiscated drugs with arsenic and then we'd be rid of all the druggies that are committing crimes to feed their habits.

She thinks all Americans should own guns and be able to carry concealed weapons. (She does.) Her husband was a special ops guy - very secret - and has photos of himself with 5 presidents signed with things like "Thanks for a job well done for America."

She thinks that we don't use capital punishment enough. She's all for the three strikes law and thinks that it should be adopted everywhere, but instead of incarcerating the culprits, she thinks we should remove them from the face of the earth. Sort of a 3 strikes and you're dead policy.

I could go on, but you get the point. She's very conservative - rabidly so. And I love her to pieces. She actually has a good heart, hates injustice and she's very smart.

I couldn't disagree with her more than I do already, politically. But we respect each other and most of the time we just steer clear of political issues. I should probably do that here at LBT, but I keep coming back to it and getting involved because I believe just as strongly in my own thoughts and ideas and ideals, and it is great to be able to have a voice, at least somewhere, and state my opinions.

I do find it very interesting to read opposing viewpoints. :rolleyes

BJ....I have friends of the same mind-set. Reality sometimes has a way of humbling people like that. Should one of them experience the heartbreak of a drug-addicted child, they will change their "kill-'em-all" tune in a hurry. Should they have a child, or a grandchild, born with serious birth defects not covered by insurance, they will put their pride in their back pocket and BEG "the system" for help. (Trust me, I know all about that one.)

Bad things happen to good people all the time. And many times, people do bring adversity on themselves. But as long as there is breath in the body, there is hope for the spirit. I pray today for all the troubled souls who need the help and guidance and encouragement of their stronger friends and neighbors. It takes a village....not just to raise a child, but to care for and lift up one another.

I agree Carlene. Well said.

It does take a village today just as it did in our parent's and grandparents' times. Our village has just become too global. Most of us no longer live in a little town of (fill in the blank) population 1000. Back then, everyone looked out for each other. When someone in the community had a problem, they knew it was a community problem and everyone pulled together to solve it.

We're a country of transients. We move wherever the highest paying job is. We don't live in small communities anymore. We've become anonymous. Within that anonymity, we feel invisible. And because we don't know the people across town whose house burned down or whose child is on drugs, most of us close our eyes and look the other way, toward things that are more pleasant and appealing.

Many of our churches do a good job of helping others in the community, but many do not. Many focus their resources on missions in other countries which isn't a bad thing, but when they ignore needy people in their own community, I think it is a disservice to their parishioners.

Many individuals help others by volunteering and by giving money or raising money for others. Most people do not. That's why we must all pull together for the greater good. That's why we established certain government programs in the first place and that's why we continue to need them today.

LRBloom8: I've always thought that you must be a genuinely nice person. One of my very best friends in the world is a very hard core Republican. We've had some extremely heated discussions. She is completely against the government giving "hand outs" to the down trodden in our country.

BJean: And I have felt the same about you. I also think we would probably have a great time if we knew each other in person! It's funny how our experiences and relationships can be similiar but shape us in different ways. I live in Calif. so almost everyone around me is liberal/Democrat. I grew up in a family full of Democrats, yet I was always the "sensitive" one, giving strangers my money or my food, picking up "strays", both animal and human, all the time. It drove my parents nuts, and I got many lectures on the need to "toughen up" and take care of myself and stop wasting my life worrying about other people. And I turned out to be the Republican in the family!! To this day, my folks get so angry if they hear about my DH and I doing charity work, especially if it involves money. We try to hide it from them when possible.

To most Democrats I know, the focus is on taking care of themselves, while talking about the government's responsibility to take care of everyone else. That never made any sense to me.... I always thought we should take care of those that God brings into our path first, and if all people did that within THEIR circle, we would all be taken care of. Of course, age and wisdom ( ) have shown me that I was thinking in Utopian terms, and I do see the need for government and those that "have" to get more involved in the care of those who "don't have". I think where Dems and Repubs get hung up is on the type or length of care. I know whole families, 2 generations or more, who live on welfare. Able-bodied people but they just don't want to work. Their only "job" is to keep the women pregnant so they can apply for more help. I know that sounds like a mean stereotype, but it is very true and very common. I have been a small-business owner of a medical temp agency for the last 15 years and the amount of people who come in to apply for work, hoping that we will find them clients who will pay them "under the table" so it won't interfere with their welfare/SSI/disability/housing, etc.,etc. benefits would shock you. They come in driving nicer cars than I have, have the latest and trendiest clothes and brag about all the money they spend on the latest toy, with no shame. As someone who has never taken help from anyone, ever, no matter how tough things were sometimes, it makes me angry. Yet in our "politically correct" society, just talking about limiting or policing benefits a little better gets one called a "racist" or "hard-hearted" so most of us don't try anymore. We just watch our tax dollars get wasted and abused, while real needs and really needy people get less. I give all I can to good charities and real people, both in money and hands-on, but I can only do so much.....

I guess this is why I get so upset when people talk in stereotypes. I don't think I fit the profile of an Unfeeling Republican, and I don't think you fit the profile of an Unthinking Democrat. I wish everyone had the benefit of a forum like this to exchange views and learn to see each other's side in a non-hostile way. Thanks for sharing yours.

P.S. Your Republican friend sounds more radical than anyone I know.... I would love to be a fly on the wall when you two discuss politics!!

It is human nature to ignore what doesn't affect us directly. When we lived in small villages it was natural for the community to come together in order to assist a neighbour family who was in trouble. Misery had a face and of course we were anxious to help. This reaction is still seen when one family's troubles are profiled on the local news; people want to send money to the family in order to help them out.

It is when the families in trouble become statistics that we begin to stop caring and that is why we do need government programmes to do what we are no longer capable of doing as individuals. Let's face it; few of us live in tiny villages anymore. We don't know our neighbours in that old-fashioned way.

And as for welfare bums, well, nobody approves of this behaviour. The difference in philosophy is that some of us believe that not everyone who is on welfare is a bum. And there are many folks who are members of the working poor. These people are going to need access to government assistance programmes, too.

And as for welfare bums, well, nobody approves of this behaviour. The difference in philosophy is that some of us believe that not everyone who is on welfare is a bum. And there are many folks who are members of the working poor. These people are going to need access to government assistance programmes, too.

Green, do you actually know people who believe that everyone on welfare is a bum?? If so, that is terrible. In my post, I was talking about people who openly and knowingly exploit the weaknesses in our welfare system to increase their wealth, or to keep from working. There is nothing physically or mentally wrong with them, they just want to get additional income without working for it. On a side note, many of these people are very open with their political views: they hate George Bush because "he hates poor people." Uh, WHAT??

Green, do you actually know people who believe that everyone on welfare is a bum?? If so, that is terrible. In my post, I was talking about people who openly and knowingly exploit the weaknesses in our welfare system to increase their wealth, or to keep from working. There is nothing physically or mentally wrong with them, they just want to get additional income without working for it. On a side note, many of these people are very open with their political views: they hate George Bush because "he hates poor people." Uh, WHAT??

Yep, I actually have met a few who claim to think that way. I personally like to think that they are exaggerating in order to watch Green blow up like a balloon. :phanvan LOL :car:

As for those individuals who do exploit the welfare system...how are they any different from those large corporations that also exploit the system for their own profit? In both cases the honest citizen is the one who suffers a blow to the wallet. :car:

Yep, I actually have met a few who claim to think that way. :car: I personally like to think that they are exaggerating in order to watch Green blow up like a balloon. :phanvan LOL

As for those individuals who do exploit the welfare system...how are they any different from those large corporations that also exploit the system for their own profit? In both cases the honest citizen is the one who suffers a blow to the wallet. :car:

I think maybe I don't really differentiate between people and corporations. The word "corporation" has become a catch-all for something big, corrupt and impersonal. I think it is more helpful to break it down into people. We need to encourage all people to be responsible and honest in their actions, whether one is an individual or works within a corporation. I do know of some great and ethical corporations, so I think it is possible.

I think maybe I don't really differentiate between people and corporations. The word "corporation" has become a catch-all for something big, corrupt and impersonal. I think it is more helpful to break it down into people. We need to encourage all people to be responsible and honest in their actions, whether one is an individual or works within a corporation. I do know of some great and ethical corporations, so I think it is possible.

I really like the point which you have just made. :car: You may be aware that a former Canadian and a press baron, Lord Conrad Black, has recently been convicted in an American court of certain financial malfeasances.

Financial misbehaviour is usually the result of greed. Innocent people who are on the outside of dishonest actions do get hurt, whether these folks are the taxpayers who underwrite the financial assistance of those who are on welfare, the shareholders of a company which has gone sour, shareholders who may have been planning for their own retirement or for their kids' education, or those individuals who had been earning a living by working for these same companies.

Yes, there are solid and responsible corporations who are run by fine and ethical people and there are decent folk who do land up on public assistance. I believe that neither the left nor the right should forget this.

I myself am actually pro big business although I do tend to speak like a left-wing nut in most of my posts. I believe that it takes big business and big money in order to bring about the kind of progress upon which we all rely. Mom and Pop style businesses do not bring us airlines, railroads, the trucking industry, advances in medical and pharmaceutical knowledge, computer technology, the internet, or, for that matter, any of the mod cons which we all take for granted. And it is only through big business that all of these products which we do enjoy have price tags which put them within the grasp of average people with average incomes.

Ugh! I hoping I am making sense. I am still recovering from my time up north with the in-laws. Lemme know if this post is incomprehensible, eh.:car:

I really like the point which you have just made. :car: You may be aware that a former Canadian and a press baron, Lord Conrad Black, has recently been convicted in an American court of certain financial malfeasances.

Financial misbehaviour is usually the result of greed. Innocent people who are on the outside of dishonest actions do get hurt, whether these folks are the taxpayers who underwrite the financial assistance of those who are on welfare, the shareholders of a company which has gone sour, shareholders who may have been planning for their own retirement or for their kids' education, or those individuals who had been earning a living by working for these same companies.

Yes, there are solid and responsible corporations who are run by fine and ethical people and there are decent folk who do land up on public assistance. I believe that neither the left nor the right should forget this.

I myself am actually pro big business although I do tend to speak like a left-wing nut in most of my posts. I believe that it takes big business and big money in order to bring about the kind of progress upon which we all rely. Mom and Pop style businesses do not bring us airlines, railroads, the trucking industry, advances in medical and pharmaceutical knowledge, computer technology, the internet, or, for that matter, any of the mod cons which we all take for granted. And it is only through big business that all of these products which we do enjoy have price tags which put them within the grasp of average people with average incomes.

Ugh! I hoping I am making sense. I am still recovering from my time up north with the in-laws. Lemme know if this post is incomprehensible, eh.:car:

Maybe you should go visit your in-laws more often (lol) because not only is your post comprehensible, I agree with it TOTALLY! :clap2: You put the whole big/small business thing into a great perspective!!