I am probably going to open a whole new can worms here. I might regret opening later, but some of the topics being discussed really got me thinking about things. One of the things said that really kind of got me going on this was:

Pattygreen: Christians (usually conservative republicans) for the most part try to live moral, virtuous, nonsinful lives.

I am not a Christian and I live a moral, virtuous, and for the most part nonsinful life. I know several people who live the same, and are not Christian, and have conservative beliefs.

Cleo's Mom: First of all, "conservative republican" is redundant, because they are all conservative. I don't think there are any moderate republicans left particularly among those elected to office.

However, I just wonder if it is MORAL to mislead or outright lie, because listen to what these conservative republicans have said:

Dana Perino said on Fox: We did not have a domestic attack during bush's administration.

A month later Mary Matalin said: bush inherited 9/11 from Clinton.

Yesterday, Rudy Giuliani said that we never had a domestic attack under bush but we had one under Obama.

Now, I ask you - do these people think the American public is really that stupid? Apparently. Those on the right just make things up and keep repeating it. And when they repeat it often enough eventually some people begin to believe it.

They reduce things to some emotional, hate filled sound bite: death panels, obamacare, socialism, hitler, nazi.

This is because they are unable to engage in meaningful, intelligent, fact-based discussions. Maybe they don't want to do that because they don't have the facts on their side.

First I am a moderate Republican. I do tend to lean a little more to the right, but on some issues I lean to the left. Some things I can lean pretty right, and others I lean pretty far left. It really depends on the issue. I'd like to think that would make me moderate. I know many people who are moderate Republicans also. So we are still out there. There are some politicians who are still moderate also.

Second just because you are a Republican does not mean that you can not have a intelligent, meaningful, fact-based conversation. That is like saying liberals have their heads in clouds and live in fantasy nerf world filled with rainbows and butterflies.

Both sides sling mud back and forth. Both sides have their hate filled idiots. Both sides have their good and bad points. Both sides LIE, LIE, and LIE some more.

I get so sick and tired of hearing about how the Republicans have screwed everything up...I mean really they did it all alone.....no help from the left at all???

I personally feel that if you lean too far left or right you can't have a very grip on reality, and when our politicans lean too far left or right it's not good for our country either way. I hope someday too see more moderate politicans in office.

The republicans always try to paint themselves as the rah, rah, patriotic party, blah, blah, blah but when it's time to put their votes where their mouths are, well they vote NO on the 9/11 responder bill. You must watch this video. Rep. Anthony Weiner is GREAT. Boy, do we need more like him.

Daily Kos: Anthony Weiner for moderately influential place in government..

It should be very clear that the republicans don't care about helping America or Americans - they just want to cause Obama to fail and take the country down with them.

Edited July 30, 201015 yr by Cleo's Mom

The social security yearly cost of living increase is tied directly to the cost of living index. This year (2010) there was NO cost of living increase for SS recipients because the cost of living did not go up. Now this is fact. So, where is all this paying more for everything? Housing prices have fallen. Gas is down from $4/gal under bush. I know colleges have raised tuition. But other than that I haven't seen large price increases. It's a buyers market. Those who have money can get deals on cars, houses, real estate, just about everything.

I am paying more for electricity and gas as well as for oil heat. I am paying much more for groceries and Doctor vists and many, many things.

And as far as haters, well I have posted enough pictures and posts from this forum to prove my point. You can say you're not a racist but I think the fact that all this president hating/bashing didn't start until we had a black president shows otherwise.

YOU are the Hater!!!!!! You hate Bush and every republican/independent out there. Anyone who opposes what you believe is right. You are not shy about expressing your outright HATRED for others who oppose you. You call them names and say terrible things about those who are not democrats. You put down their intelligence and accuse them of terrible things! ALL can be construed as HATE!!!!!!!

YOU are the RACIST!!!! YOU hate white conservatives and have said just as much with your rants about how they are black haters. If anyone is racist around here, it is you. Against white people who disagree with you on politics and every issue out there.

THERE!!!! How do you like that?!!!!!!

YOU are the Hater!!!!!! You hate Bush and every republican/independent out there. Anyone who opposes what you believe is right. You are not shy about expressing your outright HATRED for others who oppose you. You call them names and say terrible things about those who are not democrats. You put down their intelligence and accuse them of terrible things! ALL can be construed as HATE!!!!!!!

YOU are the RACIST!!!! YOU hate white conservatives and have said just as much with your rants about how they are black haters. If anyone is racist around here, it is you. Against white people who disagree with you on politics and every issue out there.

THERE!!!! How do you like that?!!!!!!

Go take a xanax, PG. Anyone with two brain cells who has been reading my posts know that this is just the rantings of an irrational person. I think the lady doth protest too much. Obviously touched another nerve.

Again, answser the question as to why Social Security recipients didn't get a cost of living increase this year for the first time if the cost of living has risen. You can't. You will just digress and go off into another direction.

Edited July 31, 201015 yr by Cleo's Mom

Another Obama success that the party of no, that hates success, opposed:

Obama touts auto bailout to workers

Saturday, July 31, 2010

By Michael D. Shear and Peter Whoriskey, The Washington Post

DETROIT -- The government's bailout of the U.S. auto industry last year sparked political hand-wringing about the end of capitalism and allegations that President Barack Obama aspired to be CEO of what critics dubbed "Government Motors."

But a year and a half later, many critics have retreated from their sharpest attacks, as the auto industry again turns a profit and begins adding jobs in communities such as Detroit, which desperately need them.

Mr. Obama's visit Friday to a Chrysler plant in Detroit was designed as a victory rally -- an "I told you so" event aimed at his Republican critics who had attacked the auto bailouts as government takeovers.

A feisty Mr. Obama was welcomed with loud applause by about 1,500 auto workers inside the plant that makes the Jeep Grand Cherokee, a vehicle he said was the first new car he ever owned. If his critics had won, he said, the plant would have been shuttered and dark.

There's no satisfying some, like radio host Rush Limbaugh, who this week referred to General Motors as Obama Motors. And the auto turnaround is not enough to fix Detroit, where 30 percent unemployment has ravaged the city like few others.

When it comes to critics who continue to condemn the bailout, the White House is not forgiving. Press Secretary Robert Gibbs said Thursday critics such as Mr. Limbaugh were willing to forsake auto workers at the time they needed help the most.

The White House is eager to tell a success story ahead of the congressional midterm elections this fall. The president's Friday visit and another to a Ford plant outside Chicago next week are intended to tell that story more widely to potential voters.

The president started at Chrysler's Jefferson North plant, where the Grand Cherokees are built, then toured a plant that will produce GM's first electric car, the Volt. Both are churning out cars, adding shifts of workers and helping to keep suppliers in business across the Rust Belt.

"In the year before these bankruptcies, these companies lost almost 340,000 jobs," said Ron Bloom, the administration's top auto official. "In the year since then, 55,000 jobs have been added to these companies. If we hadn't stepped in ... most observers believe at least a million jobs would have been lost."

Mr. Obama made clear Friday that he will use the auto turnaround to focus the argument that his economic policies have created an economic recovery.

"Don't bet against the American worker," he said, his voice rising over audience cheers. "It's going to take some time to get back to where we want to be, but I have confidence in the American worker," he said. "... I have confidence in this economy. We are coming back."

In the cavernous assembly plant, many workers described a welcome morale turnaround from a year or two ago, when scared workers took buyouts out of fear that the end was near.

"The morale is different now," said Erik Williams, 38, a plant worker since 1994. "When you know you are on the brink, and you come back from that, it puts it in a different perspective."

Several plant workers said Mr. Obama deserves much credit for believing in the industry and its employees. "I've been here 16 years, and last year was the worst year of my life; it was terrible," said James Tiedt, 39. He said he almost lost his house to foreclosure last year but was saved by federal housing programs. Of Mr. Obama, he said: "He's the man."

In the first quarter of 2010, GM earned a quarterly profit of $865 million, its first since 2007. Chrysler reported an operating profit of $143 million over the same period. Preliminary figures suggest that auto industry employment in the United States may reverse a decade of decline.

The auto industry financing program, which began under the Bush administration, (does that make bush a socialist? Hmmm) extended about $85 billion to General Motors, Chrysler, GMAC and Chrysler Financial. Those investments were justified by the Obama administration as a means of saving an estimated million jobs or more.

Today, most of the government money is expected to be repaid. In March, the administration estimated the program's ultimate cost to be $24.6 billion. Administration officials predict that the expected loss will fall as companies in which the U.S. has a stake grow in value.

What is the difference if your taxes are raised, or you have to pay more for everything because of his policies? Money out of our pockets is money, whether you call it a literal "tax" or not. Obama's policies are causeing inflation on everything from gasoline prices to food to electricity costs and every other expense we have. His taxing of the rich only causes them to pass the expense onto the consumer. So, the 'facts' may say there has been no tax increase, but the people feel it in their pocketbooks anyway.

The numbers horizontally are the months of the year.

Current Inflation RateY

20102.63%2.14%2.31%2.24%2.02%1.05%NANANANANANANA

20090.03%0.24%-0.38%-0.74%-1.28%-1.43%-2.10%-1.48%-1.29%-0.18%1.84%2.72%-0.34%

20084.28%4.03%3.98%3.94%4.18%5.02%5.60%5.37%4.94%3.66%1.07%0.09%3.85%

20072.08%2.42%2.78%2.57%2.69%2.69%2.36%1.97%2.76%3.54%4.31%4.08%2.85%

20063.99%3.60%3.36%3.55%4.17%4.32%4.15%3.82%2.06%1.31%1.97%2.54%3.24%

20052.97%3.01%3.15%3.51%2.80%2.53%3.17%3.64%4.69%4.35%3.46%3.42%3.39%

20041.93%1.69%1.74%2.29%3.05%3.27%2.99%2.65%2.54%3.19%3.52%3.26%2.68%

20032.60%2.98%3.02%2.22%2.06%2.11%2.11%2.16%2.32%2.04%1.77%1.88%2.27%

20021.14%1.14%1.48%1.64%1.18%1.07%1.46%1.80%1.51%2.03%2.20%2.38%1.59%

20013.73%3.53%2.92%3.27%3.62%3.25%2.72%2.72%2.65%2.13%1.90%1.55%2.83%

20002.74%3.22%3.76%3.07%3.19%3.73%3.66%3.41%3.45%3.45%3.45%3.39%3.38%Note: Red indicates Deflation, NA indicates data not yet released. Get more Historical Data from InflationData.com

Please list the SPECIFIC "policies" of Pres. Obama that are causing all this "inflation" that you claim is happening. The above inflation numbers do not support your statements that his policies are causing all this inflation. They were higher under bush. No surprise there.

Edited July 31, 201015 yr by Cleo's Mom

This Modern World: A conservative media provocateur on parallel Earth

Saturday, July 31, 2010

There are some on here who I think live in an a parallel universe where "liberals are the real racists."

Inflation? What rock have you been living under?

The Republican party is the party of hate. And although I do note that Cleo's mentioned the word hate in her post, patty, you're the one person who uses that word consistently. You always claim that people hate when they disagree or challenge Republicans.

We aren't filled with hatred like the Republicans. We aren't the ones who, like the Republican tea party folks, carry hate filled slogans on placards. We aren't the ones who and loudly rant and rave hateful words on the Fox networks about the opposition party. We aren't the ones who, like Rush Limbaugh on the radio, is spewing hate about this president and about the Democratic agenda in congress.

The Republicans are experts at using hateful antics to incite Americans into a frenzy. And interestingly enough, the slogans and the rantings are usually incorrect. But that doesn't stop or even slow them down - even when they are called out on it.

Hate is a very strong word. You use it indiscriminately and often to describe anyone who is stating an opinion or putting forth information that they've found that they want to share that you don't agree with. The word hate drives a wedge between reasonable people who might disagree on a subject. Debate can be healthy and a learning process. But it isn't when hate is felt by either side.

Why don't we stop using that term here? It scares off most people who might have something they'd like to add to the discussion. I'd like to read something that other people on the forum have to post. Nobody likes to post something and then be told that they HATE everyone who doesn't agree with them.

Inflation? What rock have you been living under?

The Republican party is the party of hate. And although I do note that Cleo's mentioned the word hate in her post, patty, you're the one person who uses that word consistently. You always claim that people hate when they disagree or challenge Republicans.

No I don't! Prove it.

We aren't filled with hatred like the Republicans. We aren't the ones who, like the Republican tea party folks, carry hate filled slogans on placards. We aren't the ones who and loudly rant and rave hateful words on the Fox networks about the opposition party. We aren't the ones who, like Rush Limbaugh on the radio, is spewing hate about this president and about the Democratic agenda in congress.

Right now. Because you have your man in office. But when you didn't, your party was far, far worse at holding hate filled posters. Need I remind you again?

The Republicans are experts at using hateful antics to incite Americans into a frenzy. And interestingly enough, the slogans and the rantings are usually incorrect. But that doesn't stop or even slow them down - even when they are called out on it.

Hate is a very strong word. You use it indiscriminately and often to describe anyone who is stating an opinion or putting forth information that they've found that they want to share that you don't agree with.

Really? where have I used it? Pull it up. I dare you. I have never accused the left, or anyone else, of being haters. Only Cleo's in order to show her how stupid she sounds when she does it.

The word hate drives a wedge between reasonable people who might disagree on a subject. Debate can be healthy and a learning process. But it isn't when hate is felt by either side.

Why don't we stop using that term here? It scares off most people who might have something they'd like to add to the discussion. I'd like to read something that other people on the forum have to post. Nobody likes to post something and then be told that they HATE everyone who doesn't agree with them.

True, for once. I, personally, don't call anyone who disagrees with my stand on issues a hater, or accuse them of hating others simply because they don't agree with me. Cleo'smom is the famous one for that. This is a liberal tactic. When they used "racist" for soooo long, they needed another word for those who oppose them. "Haters" was it. When all else fails, and you can't win the argument for your cause, call them a racist or a hater! Liberals can't help themselves!

True, for once. I, personally, don't call anyone who disagrees with my stand on issues a hater, or accuse them of hating others simply because they don't agree with me. Cleo'smom is the famous one for that. This is a liberal tactic. When they used "racist" for soooo long, they needed another word for those who oppose them. "Haters" was it. When all else fails, and you can't win the argument for your cause, call them a racist or a hater! Liberals can't help themselves!

You've called me a racist at least 4 times and a hater, said I "don't get anything spiritual" and am blind as a bat spiritually, asked if I were black or something, and said I must have been a terrible teacher, just to name a few. So don't you dare try to come across as some goody two shoes. That's hypocrisy and THAT'S a conservative tactic!!!

The proof is in the pudding, so to speak, and I have posted enough pictures and examples of posts from the right wing to prove my point that much of what they believe starts from a position of hate or racism. Too bad if that too strikes a nerve. Deny all you want. Facts don't lie and Don't kill the messenger, that won't work either. Thinking people can see right through it.

Edited August 1, 201015 yr by Cleo's Mom

patty we've been through all this "hate thing before. I lodged a similar complaint a while back because you were using it so much at the time. I could definitely prove my claim because it has occurred so often.

You know me well enough to know that I will not spend my time doing that and so you think you're safe in denying it, but truthfully I think most people who read these threads know that what I've said about your very frequent use of the word hate is true without my having to spend time documenting it.

You've called me a racist at least 4 times and a hater, said I "don't get anything spiritual" and am blind as a bat spiritually, asked if I were black or something, and said I must have been a terrible teacher, just to name a few. So don't you dare try to come across as some goody two shoes. That's hypocrisy and THAT'S a conservative tactic!!!

Only you, and only when you have called me so adnauseum, and to point out to you how ridiculus it is when you do it. I don't call the whole group of yours racist, just because one of you are, like you do. I don't call all the democrats Haters just because maybe one of them are or a few of them are. I don't label liberals as haters or racists. Even though I'm sure many of them are.

The proof is in the pudding, so to speak, and I have posted enough pictures and examples of posts from the right wing to prove my point that much of what they believe starts from a position of hate or racism. Too bad if that too strikes a nerve. Deny all you want. Facts don't lie and Don't kill the messenger, that won't work either. Thinking people can see right through it.

I have also pulled up posters and proof from days of old, when Bush was in office, of liberals being haters and violent. It does not mean that the whole group is hateful or violent. It just means that some people act stupidly. YOU, on the other hand, equate what a few do, to the whole bunch, which is very childish and immature for someone who is so intelligent.:rolleyes2:

patty we've been through all this "hate thing before. I lodged a similar complaint a while back because you were using it so much at the time. I could definitely prove my claim because it has occurred so often.

You know me well enough to know that I will not spend my time doing that and so you think you're safe in denying it, but truthfully I think most people who read these threads know that what I've said about your very frequent use of the word hate is true without my having to spend time documenting it.

I don't 'hate' anyone or call people haters. You can't prove it, and that is the reason for why you wont spend the time to pull anything up from the past, not cause you don't want to, but cause you can't! Cleo'smom has repeatedly said that the tea partiers are hateful racists. SHE is the one who uses the hate word over and over. NOT me. If I have used it, it is to defend her accusations of Hate.

Im in pretty good, no great company! I just took an online political quiz. My score said I am democrat. (IM actually independent). My beliefs where most like Kennedy, Clinton, Carter.

Now that's what I'm talking about loserbob! Get off the subject of hate. Yours is a very positive post and I'm proud of you for that and for the fact that you're smart enough to philosophically be in the company of those politicians from our some of our better years. :rolleyes2:

I don't 'hate' anyone or call people haters. You can't prove it, and that is the reason for why you wont spend the time to pull anything up from the past, not cause you don't want to, but cause you can't! Cleo'smom has repeatedly said that the tea partiers are hateful racists. SHE is the one who uses the hate word over and over. NOT me. If I have used it, it is to defend her accusations of Hate.

Sounds like you're doing a "ninnie ninnie nah nah" here. The fact is that I could prove it if I chose to and if I were you, I'd drop the subject before one of us that you rub the wrong way pulls up your past posts and make you eat your words.