I am probably going to open a whole new can worms here. I might regret opening later, but some of the topics being discussed really got me thinking about things. One of the things said that really kind of got me going on this was:

Pattygreen: Christians (usually conservative republicans) for the most part try to live moral, virtuous, nonsinful lives.

I am not a Christian and I live a moral, virtuous, and for the most part nonsinful life. I know several people who live the same, and are not Christian, and have conservative beliefs.

Cleo's Mom: First of all, "conservative republican" is redundant, because they are all conservative. I don't think there are any moderate republicans left particularly among those elected to office.

However, I just wonder if it is MORAL to mislead or outright lie, because listen to what these conservative republicans have said:

Dana Perino said on Fox: We did not have a domestic attack during bush's administration.

A month later Mary Matalin said: bush inherited 9/11 from Clinton.

Yesterday, Rudy Giuliani said that we never had a domestic attack under bush but we had one under Obama.

Now, I ask you - do these people think the American public is really that stupid? Apparently. Those on the right just make things up and keep repeating it. And when they repeat it often enough eventually some people begin to believe it.

They reduce things to some emotional, hate filled sound bite: death panels, obamacare, socialism, hitler, nazi.

This is because they are unable to engage in meaningful, intelligent, fact-based discussions. Maybe they don't want to do that because they don't have the facts on their side.

First I am a moderate Republican. I do tend to lean a little more to the right, but on some issues I lean to the left. Some things I can lean pretty right, and others I lean pretty far left. It really depends on the issue. I'd like to think that would make me moderate. I know many people who are moderate Republicans also. So we are still out there. There are some politicians who are still moderate also.

Second just because you are a Republican does not mean that you can not have a intelligent, meaningful, fact-based conversation. That is like saying liberals have their heads in clouds and live in fantasy nerf world filled with rainbows and butterflies.

Both sides sling mud back and forth. Both sides have their hate filled idiots. Both sides have their good and bad points. Both sides LIE, LIE, and LIE some more.

I get so sick and tired of hearing about how the Republicans have screwed everything up...I mean really they did it all alone.....no help from the left at all???

I personally feel that if you lean too far left or right you can't have a very grip on reality, and when our politicans lean too far left or right it's not good for our country either way. I hope someday too see more moderate politicans in office.

I am not the hypocrite, you are. I am not the one who has denied the hatred for bush on the left. But you are the one who has denied the violence, hatred and racism for Pres. Obama on the right - going so far as to say it's all in my head.

So, you admit you 'hate'?

Anyways......I have ALWAYS pointed out that there will always be a few in every group who are idiots! BUT to classify the whole group for the idiotic actions of a few is wrong. And that's what YOU do.

So, you admit you 'hate'?

Anyways......I have ALWAYS pointed out that there will always be a few in every group who are idiots! BUT to classify the whole group for the idiotic actions of a few is wrong. And that's what YOU do.

Where did I say I admitted to hate? I said that I have never denied that there was hatred for bush on the left. It was you who was in denial and said that violence in the tea party was all in my head.

from pattygreen (with reference to my posts about violence from the teaparty and right wing):"This 'violence' you speak of is in your head as well as every other liberal out there who would just 'love' to see it be true. Since it isn't true, they feel the need to make it up."

Sounds like a sweeping denial of violence on the right to me!!! Make it up? I have proven it over and over. You are the denier in chief.

Edited August 6, 201015 yr by Cleo's Mom

SOCIAL SECURITY COMMISSION RELEASES REPORT ON STATE OF ENTITLEMENT PROGRAM - Dan Froomkin: The new health care law has significantly improved the prognosis for Medicare, extending the life of its trust fund by 12 years until 2029, and thereby delaying any need for dramatic changes in benefits or revenues, according to a new report. The annual check-up from government actuaries overseeing the nation's two central safety-net programs also found that Social Security continues to be much less of a problem than Medicare, and will remain in strong financial shape at least through 2037.'The financial outlook for the Medicare program is substantially improved as a result of the far-reaching changes in the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act,' concludes the Medicare report -- although the trustees warned that the improvements depend on the successful implementation of the law."

Another "nugget" of the healthcare reform.

Where did I say I admitted to hate? I said that I have never denied that there was hatred for bush on the left. It was you who was in denial and said that violence in the tea party was all in my head. :redface:

from pattygreen (with reference to my posts about violence from the teaparty and right wing):"This 'violence' you speak of is in your head as well as every other liberal out there who would just 'love' to see it be true. Since it isn't true, they feel the need to make it up."

Sounds like a sweeping denial of violence on the right to me!!! Make it up? I have proven it over and over. You are the denier in chief.

Whenever you speak of the right, you speak of them as a whole. You rarely differentiate between those few who do stupid crap, like holding a sign that says "I hate Obama" and the millions who don't do that kind of crap. You lump them all together and truly believe that they are all haters and racists. Cause if you didn't you wouldn't go on and on about how it has to do with Obama's skin color instead of the fact that we can't stand what he's doing to our country.

Whenever you speak of the right, you speak of them as a whole. You rarely differentiate between those few who do stupid crap, like holding a sign that says "I hate Obama" and the millions who don't do that kind of crap. You lump them all together and truly believe that they are all haters and racists. Cause if you didn't you wouldn't go on and on about how it has to do with Obama's skin color instead of the fact that we can't stand what he's doing to our country.

Nice try, but you made the sweeping statement that the violence/hatred/racism on the right was all in my head - thus denying that ANY on the right were hateful, racist or violent.

And as far as what Pres. Obama is doing to our country - let's recap:

-5 months of positive job growth.

-stock market went from 6000 to 10,000

-healthcare abuses ended

-healthcare for the uninsured

-financial reform for the crooks on wall street

-$20 billion from BP for the oil spill victims and clean up

-Lily Ledbetter Fair Pay Act

-millions of jobs saved or created from stimulus bill

-the auto bailout was a big success saving thousands of jobs (maybe a million if you count auxillary companies)

But the party of no was against all of this. Including extending unemployment for those hurting and the small business bill that would have helped small business owners that they keep yapping about. But they didn't want democrats to get credit for it, so they voted against it.

They don't care about this country or its people. They just care about getting elected. And these are who some people want to elect more of? :redface:

Edited August 6, 201015 yr by Cleo's Mom

Just when I thought I had heard all there was from hateful, mean-spirited republicans, I recently learned about the following. This is a republican state senator.

UPDATED: State senator: HIV babies are punishment for promiscuous moms

By Wendy Norris 2/25/09 4:25 PM

State Sen. Dave Schultheis restated his opposition to a bill requiring HIV tests for pregnant women by claiming that infected babies would cause families to “see the negative consequences of that promiscuity.”

The Colorado Springs Republican with a penchant for foot-in-mouth moments tells The Rocky Mountain News in a follow-up story to Wednesday’s Senate floor controversy:

“What I’m hoping is that, yes, that person may have AIDS, have it seriously as a baby and when they grow up, but the mother will begin to feel guilt as a result of that,” he said. “The family will see the negative consequences of that promiscuity and it may make a number of people over the coming years begin to realize that there are negative consequences and maybe they should adjust their behavior.”

Yes, Schultheis really said he is “hoping” people “have AIDS, have it seriously as a baby …”

His home page is full of all the typical right-wing, conservative views on everything from abortion, to marriage, to sexuality. So while he considers himself pro-life and pro-family he hopes people have AIDS, have it seriously as a baby..and that HIV is punishment for being promiscuous (read: having sex).

And once again, I ask - and these are the people some want to elect more of?

Edited August 6, 201015 yr by Cleo's Mom

The thing that patty, and others, don't seem to understand about progressives thinking that they are racist is because the president is actually doing the work that Bush did not do and he's also reparing some of the terrible stuff that Bush did do. And many of those things are the very things that tea baggers and conservatives complain about! So if they are against the president, but he's proven that he's not as far to the left as they claimed he would be, his actions have actually been quite centrist, and he's hasn't raised taxes on them which is another thing they complain about, and hasn't taken away their guns and all that, then what's left for them to dislike him for? Trumped up rhetoric that doesn't hold water for a second.

It's pretty darned obvious when you go to a tea party rally and idiots wave racist signs and shout racist slogans and suggest that the president wasn't born in America. There's just nothing else a reasonable person can believe if one is following their words and their behavior that is so provocative and hateful. Especially since the things that they want for America seem to be the things that the president is trying to do for America.

Nice try, but you made the sweeping statement that the violence/hatred/racism on the right was all in my head - thus denying that ANY on the right were hateful, racist or violent.

NOT!!

It's all in your head that we're all racist and hateful like the few who held up their biggoted signs!

Just take a look at your last post.

{Cleo's quote} "Just when I thought I had heard all there was fromhateful, mean-spirited republicans, I recently learned about the following."{end quote}

You just can't stop calling all republicans "hateful".

You place everyone, who doesn't feel the way YOU do on an isssue, as a HATER. Either that, or, because Obama is a black man, a "racist". If he was white in appearance, the racist thing wouldn't even be an issue with liberals. But because his skin is black, liberals use the race card "liberally." They use it because they have nothing else, but hate.

Nice try, but you made the sweeping statement that the violence/hatred/racism on the right was all in my head - thus denying that ANY on the right were hateful, racist or violent.

NOT!!

It's all in your head that we're all racist and hateful like the few who held up their biggoted signs!

Just take a look at your last post.

{Cleo's quote} "Just when I thought I had heard all there was fromhateful, mean-spirited republicans, I recently learned about the following."{end quote}

You just can't stop calling all republicans "hateful".

You place everyone, who doesn't feel the way YOU do on an isssue, as a HATER. Either that, or, because Obama is a black man, a "racist". If he was white in appearance, the racist thing wouldn't even be an issue with liberals. But because his skin is black, liberals use the race card "liberally." They use it because they have nothing else, but hate.

There are plenty of hateful, mean spirited republicans and I have called them out on here when I discover them. AND I WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO. Too bad if you don't like it. I don't think Susan Collins is hateful, or Olympia Snowe. But there are plenty, like this republican in my previous post, John Kyl and many others like beck, limbaugh, colter and others. There's plenty of hate and mean-spiritedness from these people, like beck calling Pres. Obama a racist and making fun of his daughter. Or limbaugh saying he hopes Obama fails and cheering his loss of getting American to hold the Olympics. Cheering against america!! Or coulter saying "Gore is a fag". Most right wing republican talk is all about hate, mean-spriritedness, bashing and sinking to new lows. Michael Steele, RNC chair, said today that Nancy Pelosi will have to go to the back of the bus after November. Nice choice of words from someone who is lucky to still have a job considering his constant foot in mouth.

And I notice that you never address what the republicans say or do but rather make your responses about me. Very telling.

And again, nice try, but read your quote again. You said: "this violence of which you speak is all in your head..." In other words, you didn't believe that ANY of the tea party was violent. It was all in my head you said. Ha!! I proved you wrong about that just like I have about so many things.

So don't try to get out of what you said or try to explain it away or twist the words now. The proof is in your post. Period.

Edited August 7, 201015 yr by Cleo's Mom

There are plenty of hateful, mean spirited republicans and I have called them out on here when I discover them. AND I WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO. Too bad if you don't like it. I don't think Susan Collins is hateful, or Olympia Snowe. But there are plenty, like this republican in my previous post, John Kyl and many others like beck, limbaugh, colter and others. There's plenty of hate and mean-spiritedness from these people, like beck calling Pres. Obama a racist and making fun of his daughter. Or limbaugh saying he hopes Obama fails and cheering his loss of getting American to hold the Olympics. Cheering against america!! Or coulter saying "Gore is a fag". Most right wing republican talk is all about hate, mean-spriritedness, bashing and sinking to new lows. Michael Steele, RNC chair, said today that Nancy Pelosi will have to go to the back of the bus after November. Nice choice of words from someone who is lucky to still have a job considering his constant foot in mouth.

And I notice that you never address what the republicans say or do but rather make your responses about me. Very telling.

I don't respond to what the republicans do because they do the same sort of things that democrats do when they don't have a president that they approve of in the WH. You can be very hypocritical. You point out every sliver that conservatives have in their eye, yet you ignore the plank in your own. How sad. I could go on and on about democrat liberals who say and do the same kind of stupid crap. but it wouldn't matter one iota to you. you will still be a liberal, just as anything you say about conservatives will not sway me from continuing to have conservative view points. It only shows people how BOTH sides are human and have sinful natures that can't be tamed.

And again, nice try, but read your quote again. You said: "this violence of which you speak is all in your head..." In other words, you didn't believe that ANY of the tea party was violent. It was all in my head you said. Ha!! I proved you wrong about that just like I have about so many things.

I will clear up what I meant when I said that. "This violence that you speak of, (when you speak of the teapartiers as a whole), is all in your head." I have NEVER denied that there are a few in every group that make any group look bad by their stupid actions.

So don't try to get out of what you said or try to explain it away or twist the words now. The proof is in your post. Period.

{Cleo's quote} "Just when I thought I had heard all there was from hateful, mean-spirited republicans, I recently learned about the following."...{end quote}

That's republicans with an "S". You are speaking of all republicans when you quote your rants about the few.

I suppose cleo's is okay with the government paying for all those signs to advertise how the stimulus has wasted our money. Just another way for government to spend our hard earned money frivilously.:thumbup:

Just when I thought I had heard all there was from hateful, mean-spirited republicans, I recently learned about the following. This is a republican state senator.

UPDATED: State senator: HIV babies are punishment for promiscuous moms

By Wendy Norris 2/25/09 4:25 PM

State Sen. Dave Schultheis restated his opposition to a bill requiring HIV tests for pregnant women by claiming that infected babies would cause families to “see the negative consequences of that promiscuity.”

The Colorado Springs Republican with a penchant for foot-in-mouth moments tells The Rocky Mountain News in a follow-up story to Wednesday’s Senate floor controversy:

“What I’m hoping is that, yes, that person may have AIDS, have it seriously as a baby and when they grow up, but the mother will begin to feel guilt as a result of that,” he said. “The family will see the negative consequences of that promiscuity and it may make a number of people over the coming years begin to realize that there are negative consequences and maybe they should adjust their behavior.”

Yes, Schultheis really said he is “hoping” people “have AIDS, have it seriously as a baby …”

His home page is full of all the typical right-wing, conservative views on everything from abortion, to marriage, to sexuality. So while he considers himself pro-life and pro-family he hopes people have AIDS, have it seriously as a baby..and that HIV is punishment for being promiscuous (read: having sex).

And once again, I ask - and these are the people some want to elect more of?

You constantly put your own swing upon what others say.

In this world, people do things to bring about the 'problems' that they have in life. If only they would think about the results of their actions BEFORE they do what they do. Consequences for your own actions should be a part of life. It teaches us and helps us to grow and change so that we will be better. Without consequences, people will go on living as they have and never change, and therefore, always be having problems. People need to be responsible for their choices, and when the "parent", whoever plays that roll, continuously bails the child out and paves the way for them to continue to live in that way, it is a shame. The "parent" does the child a disservice. He hinders the child from growth and maturity. Shame on the parent who does that to their child!

Shame on the government for doing that to the people they govern!

No one wants to see anyone get AIDS or any other "consequence" from their wrong choices in life, but sometimes, enduring consequences is needed in order for the person, and especially for the other people viewing the consequences, to stop their behavior.

He may have not worded what he was trying to point out to the people in an eloquent way, but what he was trying to say was clear. People must go through the consequences for their actions in order for those consequences to lesson for others. We learn from the mistakes and trials that we have gone thorough and those that we see going through them.

"No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it." (Hebrews 12:11)

I understand that liberals in general feel that the government should be the parent and fix all the peoples problems for them, but the fact is that the government should NOT. People need to endure the consequences for their actions so that they can mature and grow and change from their bad behavior. It wont happen if the government just "gives" the people the fix.

You constantly put your own swing upon what others say.

In this world, people do things to bring about the 'problems' that they have in life. If only they would think about the results of their actions BEFORE they do what they do. Consequences for your own actions should be a part of life. It teaches us and helps us to grow and change so that we will be better. Without consequences, people will go on living as they have and never change, and therefore, always be having problems. People need to be responsible for their choices, and when the "parent", whoever plays that roll, continuously bails the child out and paves the way for them to continue to live in that way, it is a shame. The "parent" does the child a disservice. He hinders the child from growth and maturity. Shame on the parent who does that to their child!

Shame on the government for doing that to the people they govern!

No one wants to see anyone get AIDS or any other "consequence" from their wrong choices in life, but sometimes, enduring consequences is needed in order for the person, and especially for the other people viewing the consequences, to stop their behavior.

He may have not worded what he was trying to point out to the people in an eloquent way, but what he was trying to say was clear. People must go through the consequences for their actions in order for those consequences to lesson for others. We learn from the mistakes and trials that we have gone thorough and those that we see going through them.

"No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it." (Hebrews 12:11)

It never ceases to amaze me the lengths you will go to to defend indefensible positions of the right. He said "he hopes people have AIDS, have it seriously as a baby..". That is NOT just an ineloquent way of stating a position, that is saying he hopes people get AIDS. That babies get AIDS. Period. And AIDS can kill. Now, you call it what you want but I will call it for what it is:

HATEFUL, VICIOUS, MEAN-SPIRITED and ANTI-LIFE. And if you want to continue to quote the bible, blah, blah, blah to defend this, then do so. I tell it like it is.

And, btw, not a single other person voted against this bill, including his fellow republicans who cut a wide berth around him after his statement. But you, pattygreen, you stand with him. Also very telling.