I am probably going to open a whole new can worms here. I might regret opening later, but some of the topics being discussed really got me thinking about things. One of the things said that really kind of got me going on this was:

Pattygreen: Christians (usually conservative republicans) for the most part try to live moral, virtuous, nonsinful lives.

I am not a Christian and I live a moral, virtuous, and for the most part nonsinful life. I know several people who live the same, and are not Christian, and have conservative beliefs.

Cleo's Mom: First of all, "conservative republican" is redundant, because they are all conservative. I don't think there are any moderate republicans left particularly among those elected to office.

However, I just wonder if it is MORAL to mislead or outright lie, because listen to what these conservative republicans have said:

Dana Perino said on Fox: We did not have a domestic attack during bush's administration.

A month later Mary Matalin said: bush inherited 9/11 from Clinton.

Yesterday, Rudy Giuliani said that we never had a domestic attack under bush but we had one under Obama.

Now, I ask you - do these people think the American public is really that stupid? Apparently. Those on the right just make things up and keep repeating it. And when they repeat it often enough eventually some people begin to believe it.

They reduce things to some emotional, hate filled sound bite: death panels, obamacare, socialism, hitler, nazi.

This is because they are unable to engage in meaningful, intelligent, fact-based discussions. Maybe they don't want to do that because they don't have the facts on their side.

First I am a moderate Republican. I do tend to lean a little more to the right, but on some issues I lean to the left. Some things I can lean pretty right, and others I lean pretty far left. It really depends on the issue. I'd like to think that would make me moderate. I know many people who are moderate Republicans also. So we are still out there. There are some politicians who are still moderate also.

Second just because you are a Republican does not mean that you can not have a intelligent, meaningful, fact-based conversation. That is like saying liberals have their heads in clouds and live in fantasy nerf world filled with rainbows and butterflies.

Both sides sling mud back and forth. Both sides have their hate filled idiots. Both sides have their good and bad points. Both sides LIE, LIE, and LIE some more.

I get so sick and tired of hearing about how the Republicans have screwed everything up...I mean really they did it all alone.....no help from the left at all???

I personally feel that if you lean too far left or right you can't have a very grip on reality, and when our politicans lean too far left or right it's not good for our country either way. I hope someday too see more moderate politicans in office.

You're also boastful.

And I also notice that when you have nothing to support your flawed arguments then you attack me personally. Like when I supported teachers with my teaching experiences after your teacher bashing post, you called me a terrible teacher. Very christian of you. And again shows you have nothing.

And I also notice that when you have nothing to support your flawed arguments then you attack me personally. Like when I supported teachers with my teaching experiences after your teacher bashing post, you called me a terrible teacher. Very christian of you. And again shows you have nothing.[/QUOTE]

I just said "you must have been a terrible teacher" Not "you were a terrible teacher". Also, when I said you were boastful, it's because YOU WERE!!!!!!! "I am Intelligent!":rolleyes:

You are critical of those who don't support your conservative viewpoints. And you continue to bash our president and mock those who support him, so what's your point?

My point is that EVERYONE is critical, and YOU are no different!

The majority of people are of average intelligence. The problem with that is the issues are so complex that the average person can't really understand them well enough to make an informed decision at election time. Instead they get their "information" from entertainers like Rush and Glen who use the lowest common demoninator to appeal to the average person in order get high ratings for their shows. They use inflamatory language rather than presenting difficult facts and concepts in order to get the average person to listen to them.

People are frustrated that things aren't as easy as they seemed to be in the "good 'ol days." Right wing media gives people a convenient scapegoat to blame it on -- the poor, the liberals, the immigrants, etc. It's a lot like Germany in the 30's. In fact, there is no easy answer to our problems. If politicians used their time and energy to solve problems instead of only doing what's necessary to beat their political opponents our country would be a better place. Our political system has failed us all -- that's what we should be most angry about.

The majority of people are of average intelligence. The problem with that is the issues are so complex that the average person can't really understand them well enough to make an informed decision at election time. Instead they get their "information" from entertainers like Rush and Glen who use the lowest common demoninator to appeal to the average person in order get high ratings for their shows. They use inflamatory language rather than presenting difficult facts and concepts in order to get the average person to listen to them.

People are frustrated that things aren't as easy as they seemed to be in the "good 'ol days." Right wing media gives people a convenient scapegoat to blame it on -- the poor, the liberals, the immigrants, etc. It's a lot like Germany in the 30's. In fact, there is no easy answer to our problems. If politicians used their time and energy to solve problems instead of only doing what's necessary to beat their political opponents our country would be a better place. Our political system has failed us all -- that's what we should be most angry about.

True.... Very true.

And I also notice that when you have nothing to support your flawed arguments then you attack me personally. Like when I supported teachers with my teaching experiences after your teacher bashing post, you called me a terrible teacher. Very christian of you. And again shows you have nothing.[/QUOTE]

I just said "you must have been a terrible teacher" Not "you were a terrible teacher"Huh? I fail to see the difference. My point being that you attacked me when I had not said anything about you - I was supporting teachers with my experience. Also, when I said you were boastful, it's because YOU WERE!!!!!!! "I am Intelligent!":rolleyes: I am. So what? I am not ashamed. I am proud of all my hard work that went into my education. I will not apologize for being smart, educated or intelligent. You must be threatened somehow by that because you keep bringing it up.

You are critical of those who don't support your conservative viewpoints. And you continue to bash our president and mock those who support him, so what's your point?

My point is that EVERYONE is critical, and YOU are no different!

Where did I say I was? My point was that you attack me personally when you have nothing substantial in your arguements.

Edited June 27, 201016 yr by Cleo's Mom

Our political system has failed us all -- that's what we should be most angry about.

I think what we have the right to be angry about is the money that it now takes to run even the smallest congressional campaign. It now cost millions and millions and when independently wealthy individuasl, like republican Carly Fiorina, who got $20 million from Hewlett Packard when they fired her, spent tons on her recent election. This all but eliminates the average person's chances of running for office, unless they get big corporate donations and that spells nothing but trouble.

But, all of this does not leave the voter off the hook. There is plenty of information out there. The internet, 24/7 cable news, newspapers, books, etc.. for people to get informed AND LEARN THE TRUTH. But they are too lazy and want some 10 second soundbite (usually a lie or fear inducing) that they can repeat ad infinitum, ad nauseum (how do you spell death panels, which was both).

from pattygreen: "The tea party movement is not lying about anything. Nor do they use fear tactics. This is your opinion only."

It is not MY opinion only, and here are some of the lies of the tea party:

We keep hearing about how taxes are evil and we are overtaxed, yet taxes are at their lowest levels in 60 years, according to William Gale, co-director of the Tax Policy Center and director of the Retirement Security Project at the Brookings Institution, as reported by CBS News.

All those teabaggers paid less in taxes this year, yet they are claiming they are “overtaxed.” The fact is Democrats cut taxes by more than $800 billion, largely through the income tax credit in the stimulus and tax credits to help small-business employees get health insurance in the health bill. What’s more, Congress will push through $285 billion more in tax cuts before this session is out by extending expiring George W. Bush-era tax cuts for richest 1 percent.

Lately, faux “news” has been pushing the lie that 47 percent of American homes pay no taxes. That’s simply not true. In fact, the non-partisan and non-profit Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy (ITEP) confirmed that the poor and middle class pay more than the rich in taxes. It is true that 47 percent do not pay federal income tax directly. To me the real story is that faux is outraged that the guy who works two minimum wages jobs does not pay federal income tax, but that it has no problem that General Electric generated $10.3 billion in pretax income, but ended up not only paying no federal tax, but it got a $1.1 billion refund check from Uncle Sam.

Where is the outrage? (There is no outrage because the phony tea partiers are pro-corporations).

This is because of offshoring and setting up wholly owned subsidiaries in places like the Bahamas, Bermuda and the Cayman Islands that legally shelter the cash flow. They set up costs in high-tax countries and profits in low-tax countries. The argument they will make is that they do that because the U.S. has one of the highest corporate tax rates, but we also have a high standard of living. We will never compete with the tax rate of China or some other Third World country.

Most corporations make their profits from U.S. citizens, and the fact is they would not make a penny if not for the benefits they enjoy that are paid for by U.S. tax dollars. Taxes pay for the interstate highway system to move their good, the ports, the rail, the sanitation and many other things, yet, they pay little tax here.

Again, where is the outrage?

Edited June 27, 201016 yr by Cleo's Mom

from pattygreen: "The tea party movement is not lying about anything. Nor do they use fear tactics. This is your opinion only."

No fear tactics? Oh, really?

Leaked documents reveal GOP plan to use scare tactics to raise money

Thu Mar 4, 6:20 pm ET

National GOP leaders are doing damage control today after a Politico scoop lifted the curtain on the party's plan to tap voters' "fear" in the coming campaign season. The PR problem started when an absent-minded attendee at the Republican National Committee (RNC) confab on February 18 in Boca Grande, Florida, left a 72-page document from its 2010 strategizing session in a hotel room. Today, Politico reporter Ben Smith's expose is making headlines.

The memo tracks the fundraising presentation that RNC Finance Director Rob Bickhart delivered to the RNC's $2,500-a-head annual retreat. The best path to victory in 2010, the document advises, is for Republican candidates to depict themselves as the best hope for resisting the "trending toward socialism" taking shape in a Democrat-dominated Washington.

And the document doesn't shy from making its points graphically. MSNBC showed the images this morning on "Morning Joe":

The presentation portrays the Obama administration as "The Evil Empire," including the now-infamous image of President Obama made over in the makeup Heath Ledger used in his performance as the Joker in the 2008 Batman movie "The Dark Knight." House Speaker Nancy Pelosi appears as Cruella De Vil from "101 Dalmatians," and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid is the witless cartoon dog Scooby-Doo. The memo candidly confirms that the aim of such caricature is to amp up "fear" among the GOP's conservative base. The memo also makes fun of major RNC donors, categorizing some as "ego-driven" and easily pacified with "tchochkes" (a Slavic word for toys).

The embrace of harsh rhetoric and the swipes at the large donor set seem to signal the GOP establishment's growing comfort with employing tactics associated with the activist Tea Party movement—and with plying Tea Party sympathizers for cash. Of course, it isn't unusual for parties out of power to court controversy and play with fire to rile up donors and grass-roots activists. The RNC has caught heat for fundraising tactics in the past, most recently when it was caught sending out fake census forms to raise money.

Edited June 27, 201016 yr by Cleo's Mom

Uncovering things like the RNC's plans for dirty campaigning reminds me of the Nixon era. And the Republicans only cooled it for a while after that. But they have known how to use "dirty tricks" (a very nice thing to call what they do) for ages and it seems to work best when the lies are the most exaggerated.

Americans seem to have knee jerk reactions to anything shocking. We tend to just get angry and not think things through. We don't seriously wait to find out if what we've heard is true. We just assume the worst.

But we've been burned and we've been burned really bad from time to time. And that makes me hope that the majority of voters will not be so quick to think the worst of candidates, until the proof is evident and obvious.

And leroy until we revamp the political system we're going to have a political system that isn't perfect. But I don't think that it has necessarily let us down at this point in time. I think that it seriously let us down when everyone reacted to 9/11 and allowed our president to take us into a senseless war. So far with this administration, there are people who are seriously working hard to make improvements for most Americans. No one single issue should make us judge this administration or congress as having failed us or as having fixed everything we want and need fixed.

But I think they are trying, against all odds, to improve things for all Americans. That's all we can reasonably expect from a system like ours.

Proof: Trickle Down Didn't Help, It Harmed 90% of Americans

Tue Jun 29, 2010 at 07:03:13 AM PDT

Here's another tool to put in your arsenal to dispel the GOP disinformation. FACTS. (Neocons don't deal in facts, just lies and fear mongering)

The 2001-2007 expansion outperformed the average post-World War II expansion in only one area:

Corporate profits, which grew much more rapidly than average.

The evidence on the 2001-2007 expansion provides no support for the claim that the tax cuts generated especially robust economic growth.

http://www.cbpp.org/...

For more proof that the GOP touted wonder of Trickle Down was bad for wages and jobs, drop and check out the chart. Worst period for workers since WWII!

For six of the seven indicators, the average annual growth rate between 2001 and 2007 was below the average growth rate for the comparable periods of other post-World War II economic expansions.

Notably, this expansion was among the weakest since World War II with respect to both overall economic growth and growth in fixed non-residential investment. These two indicators should have captured any positive “growth effects” of the tax cuts.

The labor market also was weaker during the 2001-2007 expansion. Both employment growth and wage and salary growth were weaker during this expansion as a whole than in any prior expansion since the end of World War II.

The 2001-2007 expansion outperformed the average post-World War II expansion in only one area: corporate profits, which grew much more rapidly than average.

http://www.cbpp.org/...

During this same period the top 1% of Americans enjoyed the same huge gains in income of 70% they did in the 1920s. Is it any wonder our present Depression.....ahem...Recession looks just like it did in the 1930s?

Piketty and Saez’s unique data series on income inequality, based on IRS files, is particularly valuable because it provides detailed information on income gains at the top of the income scale and extends back to 1913.

The new data show:

2007 marked the fifth straight year in which income gains at the top outpaced those among the rest of the population. From 2002 to 2007, the average inflation-adjusted income of the top 1 percent of households rose 62 percent, compared to 4 percent for the bottom 90 percent of households (see Table 1).

So, once again the FACTS dispel the LIES. Trickle down was a ruse to enrich the top 1% of our population.

This article is one of the most complete and frankest articles on the debacle we are in I have found to date.

Grand Theft America

by Stephen Lendman

http://baltimorechronicle.com/...

GET THE FACTS ABOUT TRICKLE DOWN OUT THERE so the lies can be dispelled, and people can see the facts for themselves.

Go Team DKos!

Oh, a bit of comic relief (thanks to royalscam)

It's funny because it's true. (source: reddit.com)

This is the republican economic plan - the rich get richer and everyone else gets poorer until we have a two class system and guess which one they'll be in? And these are the people who some want to elect more of?

Edited June 29, 201016 yr by Cleo's Mom

I listened to CNN today and there was a man on there who said Obama has done more than Clinton and Bush combined for the good of the people. His problem is the oil spill, which isnt his fault, that any pres. would have lower ratings during a disaster.

Fox news, Glenn Beck on the early morning show with Kilmeade and Deucey. He couldnt believe there where reporters making fun of Palin after her speech. The 2 sides are so far apart. Then theres Meegan Kelly who is the female Hannity, Shes so dramatic with her constant breaking news reports, I hear that music(right before breaking news) in my nightmares! I cant believe I used to look forward to watching Fox before bed and especially early in the morning. Its such a turnoff to listen to constant lies of negativity on Fox!

When Fox was trying to soft peddle it, it sounded like real news. They have become so extreme that there's no mistaking what they're up to. And it is very grating on your nerves because you don't have the opportunity to call them on the glaring lies and exaggerations.

It would be great if when they took a breath we could ask questions or make comments. Unfortunately only we can hear it when we question them and there's no opportunity for them to have to qualify their outrageousness. Rupert Murdoch makes absolutely sure of that.

Heck yeah it's frustrating. Sometimes I watch just to see if they've been able to come up with anything more outrageous than the last time. They never let me down.

Cleo's it's interesting to look at a chart where you can see, in black and white, what trickle down economics means to Americans.

But we've lived it and it is a middle class and lower wage earners reality.

And even though some middle and lower income people fancy themselves "conservative" and hate the ideology of the progressive party, they have had to live with the results of Republican economic policies. They won't admit it, but they were surely better off during the Democratic administrations than the Republican ones.

So it just proves that the Republicans are quite adept at selling what they want Americans to believe. And we're not that good at putting 2 and 2 together to figure out what they've done to us until it's too late.

Eight years gave us enough time to figure it out and that's why President Obama was elected with a strong majority. People got it and they were hurting and fed up.

Cleo's it's interesting to look at a chart where you can see, in black and white, what trickle down economics means to Americans.

But we've lived it and it is a middle class and lower wage earners reality.

And even though some middle and lower income people fancy themselves "conservative" and hate the ideology of the progressive party, they have had to live with the results of Republican economic policies. They won't admit it, but they were surely better off during the Democratic administrations than the Republican ones.

So it just proves that the Republicans are quite adept at selling what they want Americans to believe. And we're not that good at putting 2 and 2 together to figure out what they've done to us until it's too late.

Eight years gave us enough time to figure it out and that's why President Obama was elected with a strong majority. People got it and they were hurting and fed up.

People that vote republican do so against their own economic self interest. The republicans haven't done one thing for the middle class. I don't know what they expect the republicans to do for them. But Mr. Coppertone (Boehner) wants to raise the social security retirement age to 70 to pay for the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. Now there's a plan. Hey orange-man - take that message around to the people, especially those nearing retirement and see how it sells.

If people vote for republicans for the social wedge issues then I have this advice: don't have an abortion, arm yourself to the teeth and make sure no one in your family is gay and then vote democratic.

Rank the Presidents...yeah dems!

Thu Jul 01, 2010 at 12:47:25 PM PDT

Presidential Rankings can be found here.

An interesting survey was done for the fifth time by 283 presidential scolars. Below are that results that I found interesting, in no particular order. FDR is number 1.

• Beginning with:
  
• President Obama: was rated 15th, scored 6th in imagination, 7th in communication ability, 8th in intelligence and scored low on background (family, education and experience). Not too shabby.
  
• President Clinton: moved up from 18th to 13th.
  
• President George H.W. Bush: remained at 22nd
  
• President Reagan: dropped from 16th to 18th. He remains highly regarded for his luck, party leadership, communications ability, relationship with congress and his leadership ability. Hmmm, ranked on luck? Who knew!
  
• President Carter: dropped from 25th to 32nd. Rated 7th for integrity.
  
• President Ford: held at 28th
  
• President Nixon: 26th to 30th
  
• President Johnson: fell from 15th to 16th, rated number 1 for his relationship with congress. (how else could a president get Medicare through?)
  
• President Kennedy: climbed from 14th to 11th, 4th in communication, 7th in imagination (which is 1 behind Obama)...interesting
  
• President Eisenhower: 10th, for the last 2 surveys, and we all know that if he were here today, he'd be a Democrat.
  
• President Truman: dropped from 7th to 9th
  
• And last but not least, (well actually, ya, he came out the least)
  
• President Bush (W): 1n 2002 he was 23rd, in this survey he has dropped to 39th, which places him in the bottom five.
  

I would humbly suggest that the Democrats have done us proud !You betcha

Edited July 1, 201016 yr by Cleo's Mom