marjon9

Why is compassion needed if what's being removed isn't a baby?

Because obviously a fetus is what it takes to some day become a baby. And most men and most women take such issues very seriously, and think about them deeply, and struggle to make the right choice balancing all the factors. Men an women who make these decisions and deal with these issues are people who face difficult challenges and hard choices. They are not "abortionists." That word implies that people have a pro-abortion agenda. Women who seek abortions do not have a pro-abortion agenda. (and please, save the articles about the three feminists for some other time). Calling people abortionists demonstrates a total lack of compassion for the human being faced with a difficult situation. No one denies that abortion triggers difficult moral issues. But they are PERSONAL, and not for someone else to decide for you.

The main point is (which you repeatedly refuse to discuss) is that there are legitimate differences of opinion on what is happening here. Just because you keep repeating over and over again that abortion is killing a baby does not make it true. It is just your opinion. Other people have other opinions. You don't get to decide these personal moral issues for all others based on what you happen to believe.

Abortion is outrageously offensive and totally lacking in compassion, so i think that her description completely fits the bill here.

And you have every right to your opinion. But you do not have a right to force others to live by the particular moral code that makes sense to you.

In the US, we used to have a law that said blacks were 3/5 of a human being. The law was, obviously, wrong -- but to the people of the time, they simply didn't believe blacks had the same worth as a "full" human being. And laws were made based on that decision. The point is it doesn't matter what people BELIEVE. What matters are the facts.

If you listen to abortionists talk about how they know when they've completed an abortion, they talk about opening the bag (containing what was taken out of the womb) and counting -- two arms, two legs, a head, a torso -- yup, we got it all. What the HECK is it if it's not a human being?

We obfuscate the issue by using words like "fetus" and "product of conception" and "blob of tissue", but the reality is when women abort, they are stopping a beating heart. The baby is a wholly separate entity from the mother, with its own circulatory system, brain waves, blood type, heartbeat, organs, etc.

Your description of the abortion process that is followed by "abortionists" is outrageously offensive and totally lacking in compassion. That's what I was trying to say before, but you insisted I "didn't know you at all."

In any event, all you are doing here is restating your opinion and presenting it as fact. But it is not fact. Enormous numbers of intelligent and loving human beings DISAGREE WITH YOU that a fetus is a human being. You have a right to your opinion. But you do not have a right to force others to live by the particular moral code that makes sense to you.

Not everyone who comes to the board is an adult. we have teens here. we also have people with good taste, that are offended by even seeing the thread titles that refer to such things as boy-love.

That is truly comical. Well, FunnyDuddies, I may not have "good taste," but like Charley tuna, I can assure you that I sure do "taste good."

I didn't bring up PAS; someone else did, citing an article that claimed it didn't exist. I was simply presenting evidence that it does.

I have said before -- perhaps you didn't read it -- that whether or not women suffer after abortion is not a reason to outlaw the procedure. The basis for outlawing the procedure is quite simply that it takes the life of a human being. Period. It has nothing to do with religion or with beliefs about contraception or with how much women suffer after abortion (or don't) or overpopulation (or lack thereof) or anything else. It is very simple. Human beings don't have the right to kill other human beings for the sake of convenience.

This is basically just a circular argument that assumes the conclusion you want to reach, but does not answer the question. The whole point is, not everyone agrees that abortion, especially in the early months, is "killing a human being." That's the whole point. So your answer is not an answer at all, it just avoids the question.

Abortion is obviously not as simple as you are stating it. In the first place, not everyone agrees that abortion is killing a human being. And in the second place, there is a pregnant woman involved who may be facing health issues, or other matters that are far more than the flippant "inconvenience" word you repeatedly interject. Women must make a choice that will totally alter their lives, and do it on behalf of an entity that they do not believe is yet a human being.

These are the issues here. So, your "assume the conclusion as part of the question" approach does nothing more than avoid the issues. In light of the true complexity of the abortion issue, the bottom line again is, you do not have the right to force others to live by the particular moral code that makes sense to you.

Years ago I was flipping through tv channels mid-day and happened upon Oprah interviewing a feminist icon; I think it was Helen Gurley Brown but I'm not 100% sure. She had just finished writing a book, a memoir about her life. Oprah was asking her about the last chapter of the book, which didn't really fit in with the rest. It was a letter to an imaginary daughter, or to the daughter she never had (I can't remember which words she used). I remember thinking, "Oh my gosh, this woman has written a letter to her aborted daughter and published it in a book!"

The author went on and on about the chapter and you could see how emotional she was getting. It was so painfully clear that it was a post-abortive issue for her. She was talking about this "imaginary" daughter who was doing things like spinning around and dancing, how she was dressed, etc., how much her Mommy loved her and how she should always cherish that love. She kept going on and on about how much this "imaginary" daughter needed to know her Mommy loved her. It wasn't a "woman power" thing that you would expect from a feminist book, but rather very clearly and distinctly a love letter to her "imaginary" daughter. The chapter, according to the description of the book and discussions about it, was SOOOO out of place it was ridiculous.

While this is not necessarily everyone's experience, I am sure that there are a lot of women out there who feel the same way, who regret what they have done but who don't talk about it for fear of opening up the wound again.

I'm sure the anecdotes and magazine articles you discuss and describe are all true. And clearly those with the opposing point of view have no shortage of anecdotes and articles that are also true. But none of that has anything to do with the fundamental issue here, which is whether you have the right to legislate your particular brand of morality and force others to live the way you think is right. That's the issue. And no matter how many women there are out there with "post abortion syndrome," or whatever, this does not give you the right to take away the freedom of choice from other adult women who may disagree with you.

I, for one, don't understand your interest in presenting your sob stories of women who are unhappy that they had an abortion. Of course there are going to be women who regret having an abortion. And there are going to be those who don't regret it, and those wish they had done it. But none of that has anything to do with whether you have the right to force others, through legislation and potential criminal penalties, to live by the particular moral code that makes sense to you.

And in any event, if the lawmakers and judges of this country are ever mis-guided enough to try and make such legislate moves, all they will be doing is forcing the exact same procedures to take place underground in less safe conditions.

Now, I know, you will produce articles and anecdotes to "prove" me wrong, in one way or another. But none of these things give you the right to force others into living by your moral code.

I've seen this question discussed before, and what I remember people saying is, first of all, you need to lose a lot of weight before the apnea situation really changes. It's not a pound by pound type of thing. Each person is different, but I would say if you have lost a large portion of your "excess" weight, it's probably time to think about changing the CPAP or maybe even putting it aside.

I found the procedure for changing my CPAP posted on the internet. You may be able to find that procedure for yours as well. Check out CPAP Talk forum. You may well be able to find your adjustment procedure posted. It is actually pretty simple if you have the procedure.

When the time comes when I am ready to think about this, I'm going to start experimenting with lower pressure. If I feel like it might be time to put the CPAP aside completely, I'll try and get some reports from my wife whether I still stop breathing again, or whether the snoring has returned. (If the snoring has returned, I'm sure I'll hear about that even if I don't ask).

I think it is a little bit of a trial and error type of thing. I think you can do it yourself that way because, even though sleep apnea is very serious, I don't think it is that dangerous to miss a night with the CPAP, or have the wrong pressure for a night or two.

When the time comes when you are considering putting aside the CPAP completely, that is probably something to talk over with the doctor. A final sleep study may be in order. But then again, I think that sleep apnea is something that you can feel to a large degree. If you feel like you are sleeping well without the CPAP, and you have lost a lot of weight, in my opinion you can probably act on that without a great risk to your health.

These are just my opinions, of course. But that is the approach I plan to take.

Not to mention all the parents who now refuse to let their children watch Teletubbies because they are afraid they will all turn gay.

I watched a few episodes of the Teletubbies to see what all the commotion was about and, I have to be honest with you, David Hasselhoff started looking pretty good to me.

I just started her at lapbandtalk and got a referral from someone on here about Dr. Gerald Kirshenbaum in Denver. The price is good and it's a "package", with is nice for me since I'm coming from Alaska and self-pay. Does anyone have experience with him and the surgery facilities he uses? The office staff seem knowledgeable and helpful so far.

There is an active thread about the good doctor going right now, search for Kirshenbaum and you'll find it right away. That would be a good place to start. Lots of info there, and people to talk to.

I am amazed at how much venom you have for me, given that you don't even know me. Don't judge me based on your misconceptions about my political positions. I have friends who have chosen to abort and friends who have chosen to allow their children to live. Both groups consider me kind, compassionate, forgiving, and loving, and have expressed as much to me.

I have venom for you because of your relentless portrayal of pro-choice people as satanic monsters without a shred of human decency. "Abortionsists and Baby Killers. You claim to have compassion for women who make the difficult choice to have an abortion, but your words show your true feelings. The fact is, pro-choice people are 99% just like you. They care about babies, they understand the issues and think deeply about them. The only difference is the 1% where they tip to the other side of a very difficult issue. You clearly do not understand that. You give lip service to how "mother and baby are both precious," but what you mean is that "pro-life mothers and their babies" are precious. Pro-choice women, in contrast, are satanic, heartless monster baby killers who are only borderline human in the first place. Just look at some of what you write on this topic. Maybe if you re-read some of it you will have a moment of lucidity and see what I mean. But yes, you are right, I have venom for you. And that is why.

Thanks for the feedback Marjon!! Sounds like they must be right by your comment. I am hoping that it will help with me being sooooo tired all the time. All I ever want to do is sleep and I never feel like I get enough. Turns out....I'm not!!!

My symptoms are I am tired ALL the time, snoring, gasping for air and constantly repositioning in bed at night. My daughter is the one who noticed the gasping. I didn't even know that I do it. She has woke me up several times and said 'what is wrong mom' and I had no idea what she was talking about. She kinda freaked me out a few times because I would wake up, you know you feel like someone is watching you sleep, and she would be standing right next to my bed watching me.

She lost her dad when he was 35 to complications from juvenile diabetis so she is VERY over protective of her mom. Thank goodness for her because I never would have thought about sleep apnea. I was going to test a long time ago and never did but once I started really pursuing the lap band it was a requirement so I had to do it. I am thankful I did and now I am looking forward to seeing what a REAL nights sleep is like. HAHA

Yeah, my wife is the one who noticed that I stopped breathing. She said that sometimes I stopped breathing for 30 seconds at a time, and woke up gasping. And the amazing thing is, I resisted going to the doctor about it for quite a while. Scary. She finally talked me into it.

It's bad news in sense to learn that you have sleep apnea, but it is also something to Celebrate. I can't begin to tell you how much better I felt after I started sleeping with a CPAP. I did not even know why I was tired all time, and why my heart was having irregular beats, etc. Once I got the CPAP I started feeling much better almost immediately. I don't know what your symptoms are but if they are anything like mine, getting a diagnosis of sleep apnea is reason to celebrate. There's a real chance that your quality of life can improve a lot in the near future.

There have been numerous studies with the same results. This isn't the first and it won't be the last.

As to post-abortion syndrome, I have never, ever met a woman who didn't suffer after her abortion. I know there are some on this board who have said they have, but IRL I have met many, many women who suffer after-effects of abortion, ranging from mild to extremely severe. Go to Silent No More Awareness Campaign or I Regret My Abortion to read about what some women have gone through -- not about what a magazine claims is a made-up syndrome.

Based on the world you choose to live in and the people you choose to associate with it is not hard to believe that you have run across women who have suffered after an abortion. People usually find what they are looking for.

But aside from that, I have no doubt that there are, indeed, many women who suffer after abortions. My heart goes out to them. What I fail to understand is why this fact gives you the right to legislate away the right of other women to make that choice if they want to. Are you their parent or guardian? Is it your job to protect women from this even if they don't want your protection? I know, I know, your goal is to protect the baby. But if that is true, what difference does it make if the women suffer? What do you care whether they suffer or not? You don't really care about them, you care about the baby. If you truly cared about the women, you'd let them live their own lives without your interference. That is why this issue of the women suffering after abortions is a red herring. That is none of your business what suffering other women choose if they want to. You have no business concerning yourself with that.

The thing that you fail to understand is that pro-choice individuals are not heartless wanton gleeful baby killers who can't wait to have the next late-term abortion in order to have the opportunity to proclaim their radical feminist political point. When you use terms like "abortionist" to describe pro-choice individuals that is exactly what you are implying. Indeed, you do much more than imply that, you regularly describe pro-choice individuals as "baby killers." What your allegely compassionate, Christian little heart seems unwilling to contemplate is that the overwhelming majority of pro-choice individuals care very deeply about the issue, understand the issue well and yes, many even suffer greatly over it. They are not in the least wanton, heartless baby killers. But they are people who believe that even in the face of these serious issues they need to make a choice to end pregnancy. You do not have the right to take that choice away from them.

I dont feel like you should not get lapband. Like I said I weighed 489lbs and I am currently 441 and just had surgery on the second. So you do what's best for you. At this point anything will help. PLEASE PLEASE BE POSITIVE AND KEEP YOUR HEAD UP.

That is great kadrian. Congratulations. I do so hope I am wrong about this.

I don't think people realize how much the Falwell's of the world push atheism. People look at people like him and realize there isn't a chance in the world they could believe that hateful bilge. They start taking a long hard look at how people like him can so easily justify hate and greed and they walk away from their belief.

That's the silver lining. And maybe it can help Lucy to not feel too bad about NPR and Ralph Reed. When NPR does this, thousands more people learn the truth and get angry. It can be a good thing.

Cajun, I do sympathize with your pain, but it sounds to me like you do need to take a little bit of a reality check right now. You are 28 years old, over 400 pounds, and addicted to food. It sounds to me like you are currently facing what amounts to a life and death struggle that really overshadows boyfriends and Disney World.

In fact, I have serious doubts whether the lap band is the right answer for you. The band is nothing but a belt around your stomach. It does nothing else. It does not change your head, or eliminate your addiction to food. If you overeat with the band you can seriously harm yourself. In fact, with a BMI as high as yours, I doubt if insurance would be willing to cover the lap band. Many doctors would refuse to do it because there is too great a risk that you would hurt yourself overeating with the band.

You talk about how your boyfriend "doesn't understand how hard it is to be over 400 pounds and addicted to food." From the sound of things, you are blaming him, and not taking responsibility yourself for your own situation. A few weeks ago people on this forum were talking about a T-shirt that was for sale that said "Why won't somebody do something about how fat I am?" It's a funny t-shirt, but it is also a little scary. It sounds like that is sort of like what you are saying. Like the problem here is what somebody else is and is not doing. But Cajun, that's not the problem. It's up to you to do something about this, not your boyfriend. If you "go grab some chips and stuff your mouth" it is not your boyfriend's fault. It's your choice, your life, your responsibility.

I'm scared for you, Cajun. You are in a situation that is a grave risk to your health. It would be very, very difficult for you to find a path back to health even if you understood that it was your responsibility to find that path. But if you blame other people for your problems, and don't understand that this is your problem, and your responsibility, I am afraid that it will be almost impossible for your to find a path out of your prison.

If I were you, I would forget about boyfriends and Disney World, and just devote your entire life to finding a way to save yourself. Being 28 and 400 pounds with a BMI of 66 is gravely serious. I hope you find a way back. My heart goes out to you.

Two comments on this: one, your info, Gadget, is usually culled from Right to Life sites and thus will show a certain bias; two, it is the less sexually sophisticated individual who is more likely to be trapped in an unwanted and potentially disasterous pregnancy.

I have always been under the understanding that it is those women who are inclined to feel a certain degree of guilt about recognising that they are choosing to be sexually active who are most likely to be careless about taking care of birth control business. The notion of these grrls seems to be that if they simply allow themselves to be carried away by the passion of the moment then they cannot be considered to fall into the category of sluts. Of course they are playing a game of sexual Russian roulette.

All of this makes sense if you have been taught that sex is taboo and yet you find yourself, by virtue of your hard-wiring feeling, feeling kinda lusty. To ensure that you are protected from pregnancy is to acknowledge that you are indeed a dirty grrl and that you plan to involve yourself in forbidden activities. Individuals who are not prepared to acknowledge that they are have sexual desires figure that by avoiding taking responsibility for themselves with respect for birth control they will not appear to be complicit in this dirty act - either to themselves or to their sexual partners. This is a game of self-delusion and it is born out of guilt.

Some very good points there.

By the way, I just noticed that my last post to you was my post #666. Coincidence? Maybe not. You should probably disregard everything I said. :biggrin1: :hungry: :heh:

You have good questions but they are awfully broad for one post. Sort of like Banding 101: Past Present and Future.

The best thing you can do is spend time reading and searching on this forum. Your questions have been discussed quite a bit before, and you can get a lot of good information.

I'll add a couple brief responses. A BMI of 31 is pretty low for banding. It's not that you are "weak." There are too many reasons for being obese to just pin it all on personal weakness. The more pertinent question is, with a relatively small amount of weight to lose, does the risk-benefit analysis may start to shift away from banding. There are some risks to banding, and the usual line we have here is: Whatever the risks are, the risk you are taking by not losing weight is much greater due to heart problems, diabetes, high blood pressure, etc. But in your case, this may not be true. It may not necessarily be in your best interest to get banded, from a strictly health perspective.

And by the way, there are options for self-pay that are much lower than $24K. You should easily be able to get it done for half that or less. Check out some of the threads relating to affordable cost and you'll find good info.

Still, people in your BMI range have gotten banded. You might want to check out a thread on here called "Lower BMI Bandsters." or something like that. I bet these issues have been discussed a lot.

As for life being food-centric, I think that is true for most of us, fat or thin. When the band is working perfectly and you are in control of your situation and working with the band instead of against it, it is possible to enjoy most foods and participate in all the food oriented festivities. You just need to eat much smaller portions.

If you have a habit of going out with your buddies for steak, and they are used to seeing you eat a 64 oz porterhouse, and all of a sudden, you are full after 4 oz, there is going to be some 'splainin' to do on one level or another. You can create a cover story, like, you are on a diet, or just tell all, or whatever. But it may be that friends and family will notice that your habits are changing. But that does not mean that you can't still participate in holidays and social life, etc. The bottom line is, life with the band is not about a lifetime of unfulfilled cravings and deprivation. The band is just a tool to help you get full and stay full on much smaller portions.

Shortly after surgery, while you are healing, you may experience hunger for a few weeks. But once you are "up and running" with the band, you should not experience much hunger.

So, this is just a small introduction. There is so much more to discuss, and so many other points of view from other people. If I were you, I would just start digging into past threads, and use the search function. And, this is not a criticism, but just a suggestion: when you do ask questions on the forum, try taking smaller bites. That way you can get more complete answers to specific questions.

Good luck sorting it all out.

I have not!! Oh, sorry, you mean LBT. Never mind.

Mexico has worked out great for a lot of people. On a previous poll I think I saw that more than half the members of the forum went to Mexico.

But just so you have more options to think about, I want to mention that my doc is just a little bit more, and he works in Denver. You can find a link to his office in my signature. Sometimes it can be difficult to find aftercare of you have had your band surgery in Mexico. For some people, this has been a serious issue. It's just something to think about before you choose your surgeon. And no matter what surgeon you use, anywhere, it is good to check into aftercare options in your local area before you have the surgery. If you live in a small town, you may find that this is a serious issue. You don't want to have to drive 500 miles to get a fill.

But if you think of these things and check it out, I am sure there are good solutions no matter which doctor you choose, so I think it will all work out.

Neal,

I thought your point was very valid. I also agree that new people can often barely figure out how to add a signature or do searches in this forum. I doubt very seriously that they'll know how to edit options to the extent of blocking whole forums which doesn't sound like a good choice to me, either.

I've been on this board since it's inception and only begun using the 'list subscriptions' probably this past year. People tend to think that everyone know what they know immediately, when we were all 'newbies' once ourselves and over time learned the little tricks. But it is the nature of the beast. I see nothing wrong with adding a button to check 'hide this thread'. There are buttons all over this board for other features. I do sincerely appreciate your efforts in trying to provide an option for those who may wish to sort the folders into something more suitable to their sensitivities. You are to be commended for trying to think of others before yourself.

Neal is one of the more kind-hearted fellows you are going to run across. I appreciate that as well.

Hi All!!

I have been very busy lately. No time to post.

Well, I still have a flipped port. I can't get in to have it fixed before Dr. K goes to Africa, so I have to wait until JULY 23rd!! I am so disapointed. I haven't lost a pound in about 3 weeks!

He did say that he would try doing the port revision under a local. Yay me! I am, however, bringing my sister along with me, just incase they have to revert to a standard anthestetic.

Not much else going on... Keep on keepin' on!:youcandothis:

Hi Shesha, I've been wondering what's going on with you. Starting to think maybe something was causing a problem. But it sounds like all is well, just some unfortunate delays. Good news about the local anesthetic. You are forgiven for not posting often, but please do let us know when you have news about how this all works out.

Mark

I'm starting to have serious second thoughts about going through with my banding (June 8). In addition to the considerable cost, since I'm self-pay, I picked up a copy of my center's pre- and post-op food plans today. As I read through it, all it could think of was it was way too extreme. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but no milk after I'm on "normal" food? A lifetime of food choices that sound like a monk would start complaining about the austerity? For all of you who have had the surgery and are doing well, is this (my freaking out) normal? How do you re-educate your tastes? How long does it take to adjust? How long before you can even hope to eat normal food so you don't look like a dietary freak show in public? I'm a very private person and really don't want to broadcast my surgery, but how do you get around that in the first several weeks?

Like many of you, I'm sure, food has always been a part of socializing. Do you get over that?

Thanks. Please help talk me off this ledge! :help:

You should spend some time reading this forum on this particular question. Run some searches like "second thoughts." You'll see that most people have second thoughts before the surgery. Very few people avoid that phase.

Regarding your food questions, it's not that bad at all. Most people find that they can eat most normal foods, just in smaller portions. But the smaller portions is not based on "willpower," it is just that you get full much quicker. Depending on your doctor's post-op plan, you'll be on "normal" foods about 4 to 6 weeks after surgery. Many people also find that there are certain things they "can't eat." Some people can't eat bread, or fish, or chicken, etc. You'll find what works for you. But if you "can't eat" something, you'll find for the most part that you really just don't want it anymore.

Another thing that has come up a lot is how to avoid letting people know if you want to keep the surgery private. I managed to get the whole thing done without anyone at work knowing about it. I recommend that approach, but then, I'm a private person like you. But try to find threads on this forum where people have discussed how to attend parties and social events and what to say so you can keep things private.

The last thing I want to mention is that it's not really about "re-educating" your tastes. Once you get the band, most people find that they just start to prefer different things. You have to battle cravings a bit, but not nearly as much as you would think looking at the bandster menus. Mostly, you just eat less because you get full faster. Being hungry all the time is not what the band is all about. There may be some of that feeling in the few weeks you are on the post-op diet. But in general, you just get full faster.

Don't rush into the band if you are not ready. But just know that most people have the feelings you are having.

Once you get the band you will have to work at it a bit. If you just drink McDonald's milkshakes all day you can find a way to gain weight even if you have the band. But in general, the band is not about suffering and deprivation. It's there so you can control your food intake without having to feel the deprivation.

Let me start by saying I have had 2 abortions, something I am not proud of but can not change so I have used my experience as a chance to grow and change. I think it is always used as birth control because it serves the same purpose as all formes of birth control which is to prevent the birth of a baby.I am not trying to tell anyone what to do because it is a personal decision that each woman must make iIjust think that it is important to be honest about what we are doing.

I think when people talk about using abortion as a form of birth control what they mean is, to consciously decide, in advance of getting pregnant, to use abortion as the only form of birth control. If a woman uses other forms of birth control and they don't work for whatever reason and she has an abortion, you could say that she is using abortion as a "form of birth control," but it is a decision made after the fact. That is quite different from using abortion as your only form of birth control. Whatever your position on abortion, I still think that this is a distinction that makes a difference. I think very, very few women, even those who are pro choice, would recommend deciding in advance of getting pregnant to rely on abortion as your only form of birth control

(I know, someone will post an article about how three liberal feminists recommended relying on abortion, but that is obviously not what I'm talking about. Relying on abortion as the only form of birth control is out of the mainstream, and recommended by very few people, whether they are pro-choice or not.)