BJean

Yeah, it gets boring. Yawn. Kidding! plain just for your information, I do not read the Huffington Post. Ever.

C'sM: I will listen to your rants anytime, anyplace. I like the fact that you are so well-informed. Of course I like the fact that you care about our country and our people and are fed up with extremist viewpoints that are elitest, exclusionary and unfair to most Americans.

We certainly do agree on that, Michelle! And I also agree that this has been a good debate and I always learn something from reading what others, like you, have to say. Thanks.

Thanks for that, HolliR.

There have been some incentives and restrictions put in place, but if lots of people who are able-bodied are still scamming the system as you say they are, then lots more work needs to be done to fix the system. We need to be lobbyists for that kind of change. But I will never try to take away all assistance for Americans who will perish due to neglect from our government (which is us.)

People have morals without religion. They know right from wrong without the Bible. Good and bad are obvious when you are exposed to life situations even from the time you are a small child. Some people are capable of being extremely good and some lean toward being extremely bad people. Some are born with disfunctional brains and black hearts. Some are born with brilliant minds and pure hearts. It has to do with our genetic makeup and with our exposure to our environment from the day we are born. What organized religion gives us is a well orchestrated sense of guilt. It gives us some good things as well. But it relies too much on guilt and fear for it to be the ultimate reason for people to be good. Many people use religion to be able to feel forgiveness for the terrible lives they have led or even continue to lead. Therein lies the rub. If people would just rely on their innate sense of fairness and good over bad, there wouldn't be this use of religion to excuse their wrongdoings by saying that God forgives them and so they will still go to heaven. Like heaven is the only reason they try to be better in this life - like the way out of their every bad decision is to ask for God's forgiveness and eventually get into heaven. They blame the devil for their wrongdoings and bad thoughts. In stead of taking responsiblity for their impure thoughts and wrong deeds, they blame someone or something else. I believe in spirituality and prayer but my goal in life is to be good to others and to live a life that God would be proud of, not in order to get into heaven. I believe that living a good life is a reward in and of itself. I know that if I am kind to others it is the right thing to do. And I know that when I think hateful thoughts about someone, they are my thoughts and I am responsible for them. I also believe that people on this earth, everywhere, have the right to live in peace. And they have the right to govern their own bodies and to live however their hearts and their minds guide them. We should not have a segment of society telling us that we must live exactly by their standards because I know that those people in that segment of their holier-than-thou society are merely people - they are imperfect and many times wrong. Spiritual and physical decisions in my life should be mine to make, not someone elses. We have laws governing our society because we need to have consequences for behavior that is disruptive to everyone being able to live safely and without threat of someone taking their material things or their life. We have many bumps on our road down life's pathway and we must deal with them in the best possible way that we can. I share in the belief that abortion should not be used as birth control or a procedure that is taken lightly without thoughts of consequences. But I know for a fact, that women face many issues, physical and mental, that could require that procedure to be a necessary part of the continuance of their own precious lives. What anti-choice people seem to believe is that no matter what - women should never be able to make their own decision if they are faced with an unwanted, unplanned, life-threatening pregnancy. They believe that the government should have the power to tell women that whatever the woman's circumstances, she must endeavor to carry an unwanted, unplanned, potential threat to her life, to full term, no mattter what. For those who have been influenced by the right wing rhetoric and fantastically morbid fear mongering, I hope that they will put aside those prejudicial images and think about whether women should be controlled, in each and every case, no matter what their circumstances, by the very imperfect deciders in congress.

patty: "Let us imagine a person who believes that Jews are human persons, and that the extermination of Jews is murder. Many of us will find that exercise fairly easy, because we are people of that sort ourselves. So we may as well take ourselves to be the people in question. And let us now go on to imagine that we live in a society in which the “termination” of Jews is an every-day routine procedure, a society in which public facilities are provided in every community for this operation, and one in which any citizen is free to identify and denounce Jews and to arrange for their arrest and termination. In that imaginary society, many of us will know people who have themselves participated in these procedures, many of us will drive past the termination centers daily on our way to work, we can often see the smoke rising gently in the late afternoon sky, and so on. And now imagine that someone tells us that if we happen to believe that Jews are human beings then that's O.K., we needn't fear any coercion, nobody requires us to participate in the termination procedure ourselves. We need not work in the gas chamber, we don't have to denounce a Jew, and so on. We can simply mind our own business, walk quietly past the well-trimmed lawns, and (of course) pay our taxes." For the love of God, patty, please think twice before using this kind of language and these kinds of analogies. Do you have any concept of how repulsive and insulting and inappropriate your post is? It is amazing to know what lengths anti-choice folks will go in order to shock people in an effort to influence their thinking regarding abortion. It is no different than the kinds of posts we have seen before about people of color and slavery. Do you people have no conscience? No dignity? No feelings for people other than that potential human being in some female's womb? It is sickening the depths to which you will sink to turn people off to a serious discussion on this debate - particularly when you are losing.

patty: "Whether it is spoken for or against in the bible is irrelevent. Many people believe, for whatever reason, that it is wrong and therefore should be banned. Just like they believe marajuana smoking is wrong, and just like they believe sibling marriage is wrong. Hey, Why not marry your brother or sister? Some believe it is okay. Whose to say you can't? So, you see, the people get their morals from somewhere." You equate smoking marijuana and sibling marriage to abortion? Those are unbelievable analogies.

The fact is, you have no right to be there no matter how strongly you feel that God has assigned you the task of saving unborn babies by controlling the mother. Leave the control to God. You have neither the right nor the grace of God to have that kind of power over others.

I do get tired of people complaining about the poor unfortunates who wear Nike shoes, buy IPods and buy junk food and cigarettes with all the government money they rake in. To hear them tell it, there is nobody who receives assistance who needs it or deserves it. They are all on the public dole and they're healthy, strong individuals who are just lazy bastards who won't work. If I thought they actually monitored these programs and knew what they were talking about, it wouldn't be irritating at all. But it feels like perhaps they are repeating the rhetoric that constantly gets recirculated by the whiners who resent anybody getting a dime from any government program. I suppose if I hadn't heard the same arguments my whole life, which is considerable, I might not be so skeptic about their knowledge of the true status of public assistance recipients.

Michele, I totally understand your feelings about welfare. I don't know anybody who doesn't hate paying taxes. I don't know anybody who doesn't feel the unfairness of working hard and having to give a chunk of their paycheck to the government to oversee the well being of our country. Especially if it means that while we're working hard and paying taxes, the people who benefit directly are not working hard to better themselves and making an effort to get off any assistance. I feel that way too. Who doesn't? But this is America and we don't let people starve. We don't let them perish from neglect and the lack of medical care. We don't ignore our children when they are without food. We don't want people living on the streets like they do en masse in places like India. Sure we make mistakes and allow some people who do not need help, to get it. But better that than children dying from disease and forced prostitution or a life of begging on the streets. As for the defense budget in this country. I am a strong proponent of a healthy defense. I believe that is what keeps us safe. But how much defense makes sense? How much of the weaponry that we purchase is actually nessary and how much is designed to line the pockets of large defense contractor's CEO's and lining the pockets of the congressmen who vote for those programs? We should put things into perspective. I don't want to waste money giving out aide to people who can provide for themselves, but are too lazy. But I have a far bigger problem with fantistically wealthy men who take advantage of us taxpayers by building programs and munitions that we don't need simply for the purpose of making themselves personally extremely wealthy. Those monies spent by our government and paid for with our hard work are obscene and our country gains nothing from it.

Oh patty, what we need from a president falls exactly into the category of inspiring people to do better in our country. What we don't need from a president is fear mongering and a total lack of regard for people who aren't wealthy, not giving them any incentives or encouragement. We need a leader - not a dictator.

I haven't attacked you, Michelle. I merely made an observation. How do you justify the money we've spent in Iraq?

Michelle: "We do need defense programs, I do believe that too much money is being wasted there also. I would rather see more money go to our troops and families then toilet seats." Huh? you kind of had me beliving you might have some peculiar knowledge about government programs and then you come up with that. Just keep bellyaching about welfare... it is so incredibly genius to do that.

There is no country threatning you bodily harm. There is a dangerous faction of terrorists that would like nothing better than to kill you. The war has not and will not prevent it. And you are at far greater risk from our own home-grown terrorists than from Muslim terrorists. These wars are a diversion. While they make you feel like your government is protecting you from terrorists, the wars are not getting the job done. And no country has declare war on us so there is absolutely no reason for us to have declared war on them and drop our bombs on their people.

C'sM: you are right on target!!! patty, I believe that our President would like nothing better than to get people busy doing constructive work in rebuilding America. Welfare recipients as well as people like you and me. Perhaps we could give up the time we spend at lap band talk to accomplish something physically worthwhile in our respective communities. It would get us off our fat asses and that would certainly beautify our surroundings, eh?

I don't believe that anyone believes this: patty: "I know some of you don't believe that it is murdering a life, but take a look at some new technology and sonograms of babies in the womb and tell me that its not alive. Pro choicers like to say it's not a life because then it makes what they want to be able to do acceptable." How can anyone say that human cells that comprise a sperm and an egg aren't life or living? They can't and they don't. But that doesn't mean that the blob of cells is a person. For all your videos of babies moving in a womb, there is science that shows that until a certain stage, a fertilized egg cannot survive without its' host and hasn't actually developed into the stage where it can be called a complete human being. The promise is there, the biology is not. If you were arguing against murdering a child that a woman (or man) was holding in front of his or her body, totally independent of each other, then no one would disagree with you. But this situation is very different and you and others who do not believe it is a woman's choice, know it full well. You make the argument about it being pure and simple murder because it is the only argument that could ever possibly make a case for government legal intervention. Reproduction may be a religious matter to you, but scientifcally it is a fact that a fertilized egg must have certain very specific conditions met for it to become a person. It is not a person until those conditions are met. And most people know that the science is there, but the religious part of it is dependent on faith. Do not get faith and government intertwined because when you do, you run the risk of taking away the freedom to be an American that we all love and depend on. If you want to live in a religious country for a while, go to one and you will quickly learn why you love this country and what it promises you. You will quickly learn that as long as their government's laws agree with your faith, you can live a full life. But once the theocratic government's laws go against your faith, you will want to rebel and possibly take up arms against it. As they do in several nations like Iran.

And Michelle, that's what the government programs are designed to do. There isn't the age-old stereotypical scene of able-bodied people lined up with their hands out while the government just crosses their palms with cash without some accountability required. We're repeated the story of welfare fraud so many times it has become a mantra. Sure there's fraud in nearly every program we support with our tax dollars, but that doesn't mean that the programs aren't working for the greater good. We always need to b vigilent and working to keep any government run program or grant or subsidy honest. But too many people believe that the programs that help individuals and families are just passing out cash with no real benefit to society. That's not true. And no matter how much we all want to believe that everyone who accepts help is scamming the system, it just isn't true. Now explain to me how spending the trillions on weapons and defense and war is benefitting Americans as much as the piece of the tax pie that helps individuals does. If you can do that... I'll shut up on the subject. I'm not worried about having to shut up very much though.

patty: "You are soooo into your position on 'choice' that you can't even fathom the oppositions reasoning behind saving a life. It is therefore useless to debate the issue of abortion, because you are blinded to the truth about the baby in the womb as a real, live human being created by God. When you can't see that, you can't see anything." No patty, you're quite wrong. I do believe that a fertilized egg is life and I do believe that it is human. I just don't believe that it is a human being that should be given all the rights to live and be treated as a person - because it is not a person. And that's what I believe - just as you believe that it is placed in a mother's womb by God. You won't change my belief system and I won't change yours. But my beliefs are just as valid as yours. Just as you think you're backed up by the Bible, I believe I am backed up by science. But my real point is that no matter what you or I or the Pope or your preacher or anyone on this thread or anyone else believes - the point that I fight for - my true quest in all this is that it should not ever be a government controlled issue! That is my argument, pure and simple. I fight for people's right to believe whatever THEY believe. Not what you or I believe! I have no desire to control other women's bodies. You, on the other hand, think it is your right because you have that belief. Well my answer to that is that if you do not believe in abortion you should never have one. And the way it stands now is that the government will not force you to have an abortion for any reason. Even if we become overrun with babies and have no food for them. The government will not, as in some other countries, tell you that you must have an abortion if you become pregnant. And that is what it should never, ever do. No matter what you or I believe. And you should, for one minute, since you want me to put myself in someone else's position - you should put yourself in the position of the government telling you that you MUST have an abortion if you become pregnant. No matter what. Because to me, having the government intervene in people's lives in that way is no different than having the government intervene in people's lives who might find it necessary to have an abortion. That's what I fight for. No government intervention in people's reproductive lives. People can protect themselves and their babies however their God and their hearts tell them. It is not for our government to legislate such things.

patty: "I can give you example after example of people that I know personally who receive some form of government assistance who could help themselves instead, but it's there, so why should they? Too many examples. If I can give these examples, I'm sure everyone can. This shows me that the government is enabling people to be dependant upon them." Well I cannot give you ONE example!! You live in Connectiut and I live in Texas. Go figure. I believe that we have had a tremendous problem with generations depending on welfare in the past. We have cleaned it up considerably. There are more programs that actually help people get jobs and housing that they can afford and medical care instead of merely giving people an unaccounted for handout, like we used to. Our far bigger tax burden is the horrendous military mess we're in in the Middle East. The war in Iraq is costing you big bucks and why wouldn't you rather have your tax dollars go to helping people who are down and out in the USA than dropping bombs on random unfortunates in a foreign country? In the first case, we are bound to realize a very positive effect on our society and in the other, the wars, we gain nothing. Sure we say we're protecting the U.S. because that's the only way we can sell it to the gullible people who live with the fear mongering Washington dishes out. But it is an economical thing more than it is a mission for peace and we pay out of our pocketbooks each and everyday for something that represents death to American soldiers and death to many people who mean us no harm - the innocents in the line of fire. We can fight terrorism without bombing an entire country. After all, Bin Laden was supposedly in Afghanistan and we never found him. His organization has become bigger and stronger while we've fiddled in Iraq and fought an unwinable war in Afghanistan. And you and I are asked to pay billions upon billions of the dollars we work hard for each and every day to accomplish virtually nothing over there - and our dead and wounded just keep piling up.

And the handicapped foster children my niece has...

Bring back orphanages - we can get the thousands of imprisioned parents to work at them. We'll have to figure out something for them to do. Of course these orphanages and prisons are going to cost us a pretty penny in taxes. But not to worry, we've put away all those mean old parents who killed their daughter's babies. And maybe when the 9 year old girl who has had the abortion turns, let's say 12, we can put her in a reformatory where she belongs for killing a baby. Lots of prisons, reformatories and orphanages... cool, makes sense. Meanwhile, the rapist will probably be roaming the streets looking for more victims. We won't have enough room in our prisons to keep him off the streets. But I mean after all, priorities, right?

Anti-choice works for me. Give it some time. You'll get it if you try real hard.

And so now you want to imprison parents of raped girls who are carrying their perps fertilized egg if the girls get an abortion... Where does the insanity end? Carrie's totally right - it won't end until we're all barefoot and pregnant and can't vote anymore.

patty: "If yes, then she should be allowed an abortion because everyone has a right to defend their own life." You're in a small minority of anti-choice folks on this patty.