Alexandra

I accept that you believe you are acting kindly and sending nothing but good thoughts. What it comes across as is condescending and patronizing, since my beliefs are not damaging to myself or anyone else. There is nothing loving about wishing someone would change in a way that pleases you. I'd be much more convinced of your sincere heart if you were to say you'll pray that I'll find happiness, health, and peace. But your praying that I'll find your God? That says to me that you don't care about me at all.

Ron, I'm just curious. How would you feel if I were to say that I wish you the best, yet hope with all my heart that you will someday look at these things differently? Can you not see the negativity in that? Your respecting and accepting that I believe differently than you should be the end of it. There is no reason whatsoever for you to pray that I have a change of heart and come to accept YOUR credo. My beliefs cause no one harm and satisfy me fully. Can we leave it at that, and part friends?

Thank you, BJean! :wave:

There are lots of things that may or may not be true that I can't spend my entire life investigating. There are only so many hours in a day, after all, and my days are pretty busy. My priority is the here and now, not the hereafter. Your sense that eternal life is in the balance is what motivates YOU, it doesn't motivate me. And "factually proven true" seems to be in the eye of the beholder--clearly we all have different standards of proof. I go with what the scientific community holds to be provable, explicable, grounded in the scientific method. Recorded history is notoriously subjective--being written by the winners and all. All of it (before modern recording methods were invented) is inflected with huge amounts of personal and cultural bias, almost to the point of being fiction. Useful, enlightening, fascinating, indeed, but not something to use as a roadmap for my life. We should learn from our history, think critically about it, not live our lives as though we're still in it. The existence of a popular and influential teacher 2000 years ago speaks not at all to my life in the 21st century. It seems to me that going into Bible study with an intent to prove or disprove is a pretty all-encompassing endeavor. And it can only ever be done to the seeker's satisfaction; any arguments based on such study will prove persuasive only to those who are seeking as well. I did my investigating early in life, and reached my conclusion based on information, time, experience, and personal instinct. I'd like nothing more than for everyone to be able to say the same.

See, I completely accept that what you say is felt to be the heartfelt truth for believers such as yourself. That's why I completely respect your feelings and right to embrace them. But it just is not convincing to me; I've never felt the stirrings of religious feeling inside me and have no fear of eternal suffering since I don't believe in an everlasting soul. I can't buy in to the idea of salvation since I don't believe in sin. I've thought about it, meditated on it, have experienced many life-changing events in my life in which other people might have found an impetus to a religious awakening. From time to time I've even wanted to belong, wanted to believe, wanted to be comforted by it. But in the end none of it rang true, spoke to me personally, or answered any unfilled need in my life. And thanks, but I think my priorities are in fine order as they are. The benefits of belonging to a worship community can be real, sure, but they can be found in other sorts of communities as well (such as that of bandsters, mothers, friends, or whomever we find commonality with). And for every person who enjoys and is benefited by their association with a religion, I'd wager there is someone else who has had their life made smaller or in some other way damaged by their or their parents' or teachers' adherence to a strict belief system. (That's their current life here, on earth, the only one I believe exists.) And when all is said and done, I believe more harm has been done in the name of religion than any other force in human history. A good reason to keep it at arms' length, IMO. And it's spelled ATHEIST, btw.

I didn't mean Jesus would have altered his actions, but rather the people in the environment into which he was born. A society that believes a Messiah is on the way is always looking for someone to fill the bill. And people who are told they are special enough times can come to believe it. Self-fulfilling prophecies don't prove anything. Clearly you are more well-versed than I in the particulars of these writings; I don't claim to be a scholar of the Bible. But I maintain it was mostly written after the fact and what you read as prophesy I see as embellished history. None of it points me, personally, to make any sort of leap to believing in a deity. Nor do I see any reason why it should, why my life would be improved in any way. You asked why we are atheists. Speaking for myself, I can't see any reason NOT to be.

Yes. In high school I learned about various behaviors motivated by religion--snake handling, peyote-induced hallucinations, Holy Communion, bar mitzvah--and was moved to explore the whole area of religious traditions more broadly in college. There are several ways to explain this. Any written work could easily have been modified AFTER the fact of whatever it was supposed to prophesy. Alternatively, people could have read the prophesies and altered their behavior to fit. The seed of an idea is planted in a work of fiction, and when the idea comes to fruition the author is lauded as a prophet. (Cloning springs to mind, and I'm sure others can thing of other examples?) Giving weight to the idea that some event fulfilled a prophesy ignores the untold numbers of prophesies that go unfulfilled. If we predict many different future scenarios, it's not so shocking that some might actually come to pass. It's not surprising to me that the idea of a prophet, a "savior," an earthly preacher with a new and different message who will be martyred and his followers rewarded would have been set down as a prediction for people living difficult lives who needed something to believe in. In retrospect, lots of amazing connections can be found between the written word and subsequent events, but none of it is compelling evidence that any of it is true. If the events were indeed foreshadowed in someone's lucky writings, that would certainly do much to explain why these writings survived and were built upon.

Chris, I had the same issue on one of my computers but the other ones I use to access this site are fine. I don't know what happened, but it cleared up after a while. Sorry I can't help.

I'll bite, though I'm not the moderator in question. I came to the conclusion that there is no deity after much study. As a rule I make decisions after reasoning them through, and I found it utterly impossible to reason my way to a heartfelt belief in a deity. Evidently it's very possible to talk oneself into it, if the need is there, but the simple fact is that not everyone feels a need. Lack of belief is not an absence in my life, so there's no need to seek. What prompted me to study in the first place was a fascination with messianic cults and the realization that the history of religion provided a great window into all the humanities. What all my study has shown me is that humans are easily persuaded, like to have authority figures, and find deep comfort in ritual and the belief in an afterlife. That's pretty much it. The fact that belief systems over time and geography have so much in common with one another doesn't point me to conclude that any of them are actually true, just that humans share these characteristics and seek explanations for the inexplicable.

Hi PatienceMom:: It's very common for exercise to actually slow down the loss of weight, while it speeds up metabolism and slenderizes at the same time. Muscle weighs more than fat, so as you trim down and get stronger, you probably won't see as quick a loss of pounds as you'd been used to. THIS IS OKAY!! It's one of the reasons we are all so fast to say that the scale lies, it's not your friend, and it's only ONE measure of a successful regimen. Overall as your metabolism and fitness level get better, you'll find it much easier to lose weight and keep weight off in the future. But it's not an overnight process. Congratulations on your great weight loss to date, and keep it up at the gym!! And be sure to stay well-hydrated, drinking even more Water than you had been. Exercise takes a lot out of you.

Fulfilled prophesies don't impress me, since the books were written retrospectively. People so inclined who seek to find prophesy fulfillment in past events can always do it. There is still no evidence that Jesus was anything more than a popular teacher, an earthly cult leader like so many others. He had an immense impact on humanity, but then so did Genghis Khan. So, what do you learn from all of the UNfulfilled prophesies that have come and gone over the millenia?

If there is a God, and IF that God has interacted with us, why isn't it just as likely/possible that he/she did so via the Bhagavad Gita, the Book of Mormon, the Koran, or any of the other multiple examples of holy writ humans have claimed to be privy to over the millenia? Yet, I'll concede that determining whether the Bible (or any holy book) is true or just a bunch of fairy tales is indeed a fair subject for exploration. It's a fascinating window into human history from many standpoints, and people have been examining scripture forever. No one has ever proven anything. This is a good case for studying, I guess, if one were needed. As I've said, religious history and literature is as ripe an area for study as any other, and in fact can provide deep insight into the human condition. Obviously I feel this way or I wouldn't have a degree in religious studies. Yet I've never seen, heard, or read one piece of evidence that I find compelling toward the actual existence of a supernatural creator, eternal life, a heaven, a hell, or anything else of that nature. In fact, I've seen lots of evidence to the contrary. Certainly religious practice has enormous impact on humans and can have profound effects--positive and negative--on behavior, but I've yet to encounter any actual rational basis for humans to actually hold a belief in any supernatural force. Knowing or not knowing what lies beyond death's door will not change my behavior in this lifetime. It has always seemed to me that accepting any particular written scripture as a roadmap for one's own behavior is ... well, let's just say it doesn't make any sense to me.

People, please try to refrain from making personal comments. Debate the scriptures and theology and even belief systems all you want, but stop yourselves short when you feel the need to hurl personal invectives. Cusano, I'd really be interested to hear why you believe what the Bible says should matter to me. I'm perfectly happy to live this life without any "promise" of a next life, and feel that it's incumbent on us as humans to love one another because that's what makes for civil society. No external motivating forces needed. Now, without calling me ignorant or unschooled, please tell me why you feel adherence to any ministry is advisable for those who are not intrinsically called to one. Not yours, specifically, but any.

Kmwwmk, it sounds like you had a bad experience with restriction and just got scared off! Learning to live with and work with a good restriction level is a slow process, and it can indeed be hard at times. You had a fill, couldn't change your behavior enough (didn't eat slowly enough, didn't chew enough, didn't stop eating soon enough), had an unfill and now have no restriction. It's not surprising you're back to square one! The good news is that the band is still there and you can start again to make it work for you. Get another fill, tell your doctor to take it EASY, and then start trying to learn how to live with it. Come here as much as you can when you have issues. It can be hard but sometimes it takes really aggressive behavior modification for us to learn when enough is ENOUGH: Taking that first bite, chewing until it disappears, putting the fork down, waiting a minute, taking another bite, chewing until it disappears, doing it again and again, then taking a deep breath and realizing you are actually not hungry anymore, and then stopping at that point, getting up and walking away from the table...these are all hard things to do but that's the way the band helps you lose weight. Go back to your surgeon! He is your partner in this endeavor, not an enemy and not a judge. He wants to help you make the most of it and if there are live support groups available take advantage of them. Come here and let us know how you're doing. It's not over until ... well, you know. :biggrin1:

This is an interesting question! The answer for any given person will probably hinge to a great extent on how rigid his/her doctor's guidelines are, too. It was very easy to follow my doctor's instructions because they weren't anywhere near as restrictive as some others I've heard of. If I'd been put on a 4-week Optifast pre-op diet, or told to stick to clear liquids for 4 weeks after surgery, I might have a very different answer.

Those are CPT codes for the procedure. The diagnosis code for Morbid Obesity is 278.1. That has to be in your record for you to be considered medically eligible.

Hey Sherilynn, it's great to hear you appreciated the class! Did you have it with Linda? She works so hard on those classes and cares so much, I know they must be great. (Sadly, she wasn't doing them when I had my surgery, so I missed her version of it.) Good luck on surgery day! Which hospital are you going to, MMH? I hope we'll get to meet at a support group someday soon. :biggrin1:

That's wonderful, for those who take the Bible as authoritative. Some of us don't. Some of us find truth in other holy books. What I don't get is why that strikes you as invalid. We fully accept that your beliefs are completely valid and true for you, and it seems that all we ask is the same respect.

Nice to meet you! I'm an atheist who has a degree in Religious Studies. :rose: I've read the Bible backwards and forwards and never saw anything in it that would lead me to conclude there is a supernatural force in the universe. It's lovely literature and quite possibly lots of it is historical, but then, I don't buy into all the historical fiction I read.

I'd vote for Hillary Clinton indeed if she were the candidate. I don't yet know who I will be supporting in the Democratic primary, though. But again, are you asking if we'd vote for a woman, or if we'd vote for Clinton specifically? These are two completely different questions. As far as I'm concerned, this country has been ready for a female chief executive since 1940.

Are you asking if we'd vote for Barack Obama personally? Or if we would vote for an African-American in general? Personally, though I'm very impressed by Obama I believe he needs more experience before being elected to the presidency. I very much hope 2016 will be his year. (In the meantime, I'd love to see a Clinton/Obama ticket, but I know that's not gonna happen.) If you're asking about whether we'd vote for an African-American at all, well, I'd be kind of appalled that you'd even ask--so I hope that's not what you're asking.

Hi Shesha, It looks to me like what's showing as chat room participation is actually the roster of who's online at the time and which section of the board they're viewing. I'll try to find out what's going on.

This is a very wise observation. When I feel frustrated that I can't turn to food, I try to remember that this is a MOMENTARY frustration. If I weren't banded, the result would be the CONSTANT frustration and sadness and anger that drove me to seek surgery in the first place. I never want to go back there. Momentary frustrations can be dealt with in many different ways, and the trick is finding out what ELSE can comfort us. Food is not the only comfort mechanism humans respond to. Seek out yours.

Kerry, the popularity of bariatric surgery is resulting in some of these mad houses. My surgeon's practice has had to scramble to keep up with demand, though now they have it all under control. I wouldn't hold any of this against the doctor. I imagine there aren't a whole lot of doctors doing this surgery in New Hampshire, so the ones who do are getting slammed. They'll have to come up with a better way to manage the crowds, that's for sure.

I'm another one who had no pre-op diet whatsoever--I was just told not to "go crazy." As for why some docs have it and some don't, it may also be personalized for each person. Blood work is looked at prior to scheduling surgery and I'd imagine they get some information about each person's physiology in that way. This is just a guess, but if someone's lipid levels are very high going in, that maybe could indicate a need for such a pre-op regimen? Whatever the case, as we say all the time, we have to do our best to follow our own doctor's instructions.