I have heard this asked before and it's a thought provoking question . . .

What takes more faith . . .

A: To Believe In God and creation!!

B: To Believe There Is No God and that everything

Just happened by chance??

Can you explain why, so many years later those 'Gods' have fallen into the myth category and Jesus Christ is still exalted? Not just by us sheepish followers on this board by 2.1 billion people in this entire world? http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

I understand, I think, what you are saying, but other religions have MANY followers, and you don't believe them. So simply having a lot of people who have believed in someone for a long time doesn't really prove anything.

Do you know anyone who still believes that the previous 'Gods' existed or were in fact Gods at all?

Well, no, because most of them were ancient Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans. Their religions got handed down and handed down and morphed and copied over time, to evolve into the Jesus myth we have around today.

All we have to do is look around the world to see similar ancient religions that morphed and were copied over time to evolve into Allah, Krishna, etc and so forth.

Just by nature of people believing in these other Gods as passionately as some believe in Jesus, it renders all of the Gods impossible to proven as the "right" one.

If you'd been born in the mid-East, chances are really good you would believe in Allah, and not Jesus. Much of it has to do with Geography.

Surely you must realize that Muslims believe they are right and Christians have it all wrong. So, don't you see how that creates a bit of a problem in establishing which religion is "true"?

You can't give me an answer as to why bible stories appear to plagiarized from earlier texts, so instead, you choose to say I'm blaspheming in order to divert attention from the question at hand.

Have you actually read the "Egyptian Book of the Dead" or any translation of ancient texts with regard to religion? I have! And they are very, very, very simliar, in some cases identical, to stories in the bible.

My logic tells me that the bible is a copy of ideas, themes, and stories from many ealier writings.

Oh sure, if I want to discount "intellect" then I find it super easy to believe in Jesus. However, I value my intellect very much. Without intellect, there is no logic, no reason, and no thought.

Wasn't my answer good enough

Actually your answer was the closest thing I've had to a reasonably intelligent thought regarding this issue!

I will go to Amazon.com right now to buy "Egyptian Book of the Dead".

And then I will give you an even better answer!!

I found about 4 books entitled "Egyptian Book of the Dead".

Can you tell me the name of the author?

Sunta - I obviously do not speak for Ron or anyone other than myself. From my past postings, I hope you know I am not a confrontational kind of guy. I believe you are very sincere and have great questions with your post. I am not a scholar and don't claim to be an expert on a lot of things. For me, its just a personal belief. I happen to believe the bible and in Jesus. You say the things that Jesus did are not possible. For non-believers, that would be the logical conclusion. I can promise you that it's not "a way out" to feel good about myself and my mortality and it may seem foolish to you, but my faith is genuine and very real to me. Sorry I am unable to provide solid proof other than that. Thanks.

Sunta - I obviously do not speak for Ron or anyone other than myself. From my past postings, I hope you know I am not a confrontational kind of guy. I believe you are very sincere and have great questions with your post. I am not a scholar and don't claim to be an expert on a lot of things. For me, its just a personal belief. I happen to believe the bible and in Jesus. You say the things that Jesus did are not possible. For non-believers, that would be the logical conclusion. I can promise you that it's not "a way out" to feel good about myself and my mortality and it may seem foolish to you, but my faith is genuine and very real to me. Sorry I am unable to provide solid proof other than that. Thanks.

I know you were addressing Sunta, but...

That was a good reply. No proof, just faith.

When has faith not been enough?

I guess that I am a bad Christian.

But here it goes.

I have seen much and prayed alot. Some answered some not.

My faith was based on a lot of older people telling me in my youth that "This is God and you will believe"

And for a while, I took that.

As I got older and more cynical, I became agnostic.

I was fasinated by the Greek and Roman, Celtic and Viking Gods.

And yes, some stories seem to be the same. As do Hindu stories about God(s).

I guess to make whole in my simple mind, is that I do not pretend to know God. But why is it so hard to think that the old stories were just older stories of God?

The more I read, the more I prayed, the more I studied in college and graduated with my Biology degree and minor in Chemistry,

I came to the fact that there is a God. The more I prayed on it, I became to believe that my salvation is Jesus.

It is my leap of faith to say that how you worship God is your own.

I do not know that you will not be saved because you do not take Jesus to your faith.

I think there is enough room in heaven for all of us.

I guess thats why I dont even try to convert people.

I think you have to come to it your own way.

I think it take a BUNCH more faith to say that I believe that Jesus did what he did with little to no hard, solid, "Discovery Channel" proof in my pocket than 3 million Ph.D's and mathematical formulas that say he was who he was and did what he did.

*end of rambling*

I guess that I am a bad Christian.

But here it goes.

I have seen much and prayed alot. Some answered some not.

My faith was based on a lot of older people telling me in my youth that "This is God and you will believe"

And for a while, I took that.

As I got older and more cynical, I became agnostic.

I was fasinated by the Greek and Roman, Celtic and Viking Gods.

And yes, some stories seem to be the same. As do Hindu stories about God(s).

I guess to make whole in my simple mind, is that I do not pretend to know God. But why is it so hard to think that the old stories were just older stories of God?

The more I read, the more I prayed, the more I studied in college and graduated with my Biology degree and minor in Chemistry,

I came to the fact that there is a God. The more I prayed on it, I became to believe that my salvation is Jesus.

It is my leap of faith to say that how you worship God is your own.

I do not know that you will not be saved because you do not take Jesus to your faith.

I think there is enough room in heaven for all of us.

I guess thats why I dont even try to convert people.

I think you have to come to it your own way.

I think it take a BUNCH more faith to say that I believe that Jesus did what he did with little to no hard, solid, "Discovery Channel" proof in my pocket than 3 million Ph.D's and mathematical formulas that say he was who he was and did what he did.

*end of rambling*

:clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2:

Its too bad Ron couldn't see the benefits of honest, heartfelt conversation and honest debate. I like the tone this has taken. Much more productive.

Sunta word's.....Ok, let us have a serious discussion on faith. I have asked this question before but have never gotten an answer. So maybe you can answer me Ron. Why do you believe in Jesus and not in, say... Horus? Why in Jesus and not in any of the other Greek or Roman Gods? Why in Jesus and not in Allah?

Do you realize that had you been born in a different place, you would believe in a different God?

I think she is right on that idea.

However I,believe in a ( GOD ) I, can't physicaly touch or see, by FAITH-A certain conviction wrought in the heart trust on the promises of GOD in CHRIST ( SALVATION ) may be the Bible to some people is a fairy tale to me its a way of life I don't take up venomous snake's or drink poisonous liquids eather but fallowing the Bible ( Gods ) word it makes me a better person. to help other people and not to quick to pass judgement. I think what we give out we get back!

Some members may be celebrating Ron's departure thinking him the loser in the battles that have taken place during this past week, however, Ron may have won, because his style has brought many of us closer together. I have not seen so much honest conversation, and compassion between the literal Bible Christians, the figurative Bible Christians and the non-Christians since I have been posting here at LBT. Ron's departure may indeed have been a reason to celebrate, but not for the reason that some had assumed.

I have a different tack on faith vs. proof.

I came to Jesus purely out of faith. I believed that He died to take the punishment for my sins, and when I accepted Him and what He had done for me, I fell on my knees and wept.

And then I started to study the Bible. And I was astounded by what I found, by how it made sense, and by how prophesy of Jesus in the Old Testament was ridiculously obvious. I listened to accounts of things I had heard over and over again but had never "gotten", and the Holy Spirit opened my eyes to what they were actually saying. I started studying Creation Science and was amazed at the evidence.

So yes, I did come to Christ through faith. But that doesn't mean there's not evidence out there as well. 1 Corinthians 13:11 says When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. As we grow in Christ, we become more aware of how the world around us fits perfectly with His Word.

Faith in God.

Do you realize that had you been born in a different place, you would believe in a different God?

I think she is right on that idea.

Religion, like most things in life, can be (and often is) one of the things you're conditioned to have. That's not saying people are mindless and can't think for themselves - that everyone is a mouse running around in a big Skinner's box of life. Not at all. But when you learn - since birth or shortly after - that there is this thing called god, and you're taught from a very early age, even before you can make distinctions and apply critical thinking, that god is a "force" and everything we know is a result of that force - then of course people tend to believe what they do. At least at an early age, they truly don't know any different (e.g. they cannot yet reach the higher levels of the cognitive domain). And absolutely there are people who step back from the "training" as they get older and can, and question and scrutinize, and of course there are people who do not. But even the ones who scrutinize, are scrutinizing the validity of a belief system that's already in place, and that's different from scutinizing the validity of something that has never been in place. So we apply our higher cognitive abilities, and often yeah - it falls in line with what we "know"... maybe that's because we've learned that all these things others question are "miracles" and so it becomes, somewhat by definition, impossible to see things from a truly objective standpoint. And sometimes people feel and know in their heart of hearts that their faith is their true salvation. And sometimes people find too many questions are unanswered, there's too much "magic" involved, and they decide to leave the path of their faith to find answers that make more sense to them, or are a little more concrete. Faith is a pretty abstract thing, when you really think about it.

As an analgoy - and not a great one because age is more if a factor in this analogy than in the situation of religion -- Most children who are told about Santa believe in Santa. They can't quite yet rationalize to the point of seeing how Santa might actually be impossible (referring to the jolly icon, and not the "xmas spirit"). They believe it because it's what they've been taught to believe, and because as far as they can see, it makes sense. And then they get older, and their brain develops, and they begin to be able to scrutinize and differentiate, and all of a sudden - how can a man that's 3 feet wide get down a 2 foot chimney? How can one man go to every single house in the world in one night? How come Santa's writing looks just like mom's? And they will begin to question their faith. and begin to seriously evaluate something they've always accepted as a truth. And sometimes through their questions they learn Santa doesn't exist, and sometimes their beliefs are just confirmed. Eventually when people grow up they understand that there really isn't a rotund man who lives with elves... how they come to this understanding... different for everyone. For some it's because enough people tell them no that they believe no. For some they simply outgrow it, like trick-or-treating. For some, they see or witness/experience something that teaches them it's false. Some probably feel the pain of being laughed at by others who don't believe, so out of shame and pressure they no longer believe. And countless other scenarios. But if these prompts weren't in place, or if their questions about fitting down a chimney or handwriting could be answered in a way that allowed Santa to remain true to them, even if it couldn't be *proven*, and regardless of age they were constantly being reminded of how Santa is real and gets these things done... and every week/day/hour/minute they somehow paid respect to Santa, then heck yeah we'd have adults who still believed he was true.

Please don't take that analogy the wrong way. I'm not saying "god is like santa", or using the analogy as a way to say "god isn't real". I'm using it to explain "there's a process of logic and cognitive evaluation that occurs whenever we have to judge the probability or existence of something we can't experience in a tactile/solid sensory way, and all kinds of things can impact the outcome of that process."

But now take everything I just said and see it from the context of another religion. Or remove the religious references alltogether and replace them with ones of culture, or race, or...

Something that often comes up here & everywhere else that these kinds of issues are discussed is, "But we have so many versions of a belief system, and each one knows that they're the right one, but since they can contradict each other - obviously not all could be right." It's like having a hundred absolute realities (and no, for the record I do not believe in absolute reality). If it's an absolute reality, there can be only one. But all the different "rights" out there can't be right if there's dischord (even minor), or if there's mutual exclusion. So it can't be an absolute, and that's a part of why an awful lot of people who do not have religious faith see a whole lot of "doesn't make sense" in any religion that claims it's right.