I have heard this asked before and it's a thought provoking question . . .

What takes more faith . . .

A: To Believe In God and creation!!

B: To Believe There Is No God and that everything

Just happened by chance??

You can't be serious with that rubbish! How do you make this stuff up??

But the scientists who espouse evolution have no financial stake in evolution, while the scientists who espouse creationism or intelligent design are often paid by Christian Right organizations that need money from the poor box to grow and need to convince people that the Bible is literal to get them to contribute.

He did say be all things to all people, but that was to be a light to them. To be able to meet them where they are, not as "self righteous religous people" such as were the Pharesses. You are taking that scripture way out of context.

Jesus also didn't go seeking out the Pharisees to have religious debates. He just answered them or was showing them their "ignorance".

Serious discussion about the gospel is best kept with other believers.

If you bring these type of questions to people that don't even have the basics down, it is just a bad testimony because they don't understand where you are coming from or what your true motives are.

We are not to toss pearls...

We are to use our "walk" and if people see us as arguementative it gives a bad name to what Christ was trying to teach, love.

I see no love in this thread from the believer which is supposed to be you.

This is not the place for this. I think you are doing a diservice to our call. I think you have good intentions, but then you know what they say about good intentions.

I don't want to get drawn into this thread of going back and forth.

The question you have to ask yourself, is "am I helping or hindering".

I don't see any helping, just hindering.

I don't mean to attack you in any way, as I said, I think your intentions are pure, but I seriously do not think Jesus went around provoking people by being argumentative to argumentative people.

Very good post. But let me say one thing: "Many of the people who are most annoyed at Ron are also Christians who like you (I would assume) disagree with style not content."

I am a Christian. I have the faith of a Christian. I also have the intellect of a rational, modern, college educated woman. I don't find that Creationism and Evolution are mutually exclusive. If the scientific community conclusively proved tomorrow that we were all descended from apes, I would still be a Christian. It might shift my assumption that Adam and Eve were Homo Sapiens, but it would not shake my faith one iota. Because my faith is not defined by any particular passage or book from the Bible. I do not interpret the Bible literally. Wives turned into salt and men swallowed by whales who live to tell the tale are a little too FX for my practical nature. So I think that Christianity is definitely the greater test of faith. You can't see God, or any hard evidence of Him. And that's what faith is........believing in the face of so-called evidence to the contrary.

I am a Christian. I have the faith of a Christian. I also have the intellect of a rational, modern, college educated woman. I don't find that Creationism and Evolution are mutually exclusive. If the scientific community conclusively proved tomorrow that we were all descended from apes, I would still be a Christian. It might shift my assumption that Adam and Eve were Homo Sapiens, but it would not shake my faith one iota. Because my faith is not defined by any particular passage or book from the Bible. I do not interpret the Bible literally. Wives turned into salt and men swallowed by whales who live to tell the tale are a little too FX for my practical nature. So I think that Christianity is definitely the greater test of faith. You can't see God, or any hard evidence of Him. And that's what faith is........believing in the face of so-called evidence to the contrary.

In a nutshell, I have said the same thing in the France-Antisemitism thread.

Well not the part about being a college educated woman.

Very good post. But let me say one thing: "Many of the people who are most annoyed at Ron are also Christians who like you (I would assume) disagree with style not content."

You hit the nail on the head.

I am a Christian. I have the faith of a Christian. I also have the intellect of a rational, modern, college educated woman. I don't find that Creationism and Evolution are mutually exclusive. If the scientific community conclusively proved tomorrow that we were all descended from apes, I would still be a Christian. It might shift my assumption that Adam and Eve were Homo Sapiens, but it would not shake my faith one iota. Because my faith is not defined by any particular passage or book from the Bible. I do not interpret the Bible literally. Wives turned into salt and men swallowed by whales who live to tell the tale are a little too FX for my practical nature. So I think that Christianity is definitely the greater test of faith. You can't see God, or any hard evidence of Him. And that's what faith is........believing in the face of so-called evidence to the contrary.

I agree. My eyes are on Jesus.... not on what the Discovery Channel discoverd today or proved a myth.

Unshakable.....

In a nutshell, I have said the same thing in the France-Antisemitism thread.

Well not the part about being a college educated woman.

One thread I have not perused. I will go check it out.

How did I miss a thread on creation vs. evolution for a whole 1/2 a day???!!!???

I've already debated evolution with Gadgetlady

You know, laurend, I miss our "fireside chats" about the subject. It was very intellectually challenging. We should start up again some day (when I have a little more time in my life).

I am a Christian. I have the faith of a Christian. I also have the intellect of a rational, modern, college educated woman. I don't find that Creationism and Evolution are mutually exclusive. If the scientific community conclusively proved tomorrow that we were all descended from apes, I would still be a Christian. It might shift my assumption that Adam and Eve were Homo Sapiens, but it would not shake my faith one iota. Because my faith is not defined by any particular passage or book from the Bible. I do not interpret the Bible literally. Wives turned into salt and men swallowed by whales who live to tell the tale are a little too FX for my practical nature. So I think that Christianity is definitely the greater test of faith. You can't see God, or any hard evidence of Him. And that's what faith is........believing in the face of so-called evidence to the contrary.

The only problem with that is that Jesus believed and spoke that the Old Testament was historical fact. He quoted Scripture often and without ambiguity. If you need references, I'd be happy to provide them.

You know, laurend, I miss our "fireside chats" about the subject. It was very intellectually challenging. We should start up again some day (when I have a little more time in my life).

Yeah, I kind of miss them, too. It really was a lot of fun. Being able to debate it with a worthy opponent was definitely stimulating. So many people (on both sides) just find something that they like the sound of and don't bother trying to understand the argument or even find out whether it even makes sense. There are a lot of concepts and ideas about evolution that do make a lot of sense on the surface but completely fall apart when you have more information.

There are a lot of concepts and ideas about evolution that do make a lot of sense on the surface but completely fall apart when you have more information.

That's what made me want to investigate Creation Science all the more, and when I did I was very surprised by the level of scientific investigation and information available on the subject. People tend to dismiss based on lack of knowledge -- on both sides. Some Christians who are taught about creation because "God said it. I believe it. That settles it." don't know much about the science behind either theory, but they knee-jerk reject evolution simply because it's not what they have been taught. And many evolutionists dismiss creation science because they can't believe it could possibly be a reasonable or scientific theory. I believe in a full investigation of both.

evolution simply because it's not what they have been taught. And many evolutionists dismiss creation science because they can't believe it could possibly be a reasonable or scientific theory. I believe in a full investigation of both.

This is part of why I enjoy the debates with you, and gadget, and TOM, and others who are willing to open up and listen, and not think that saying "Yes, that makes since, but have you thought of it this way" is the same thing as saying, "Oh sweet peas on a cracker, you're right and everything I know in life is now attacked." I think a lot of it is the whole "us vs. them" mentality. A lot of people in the debate, regardless of their beliefs, investigate only one side of it... and if it makes sense, they go with it. Very rarely can it be - you're a christian, cool... I'm not, cool... let's talk! (Or you're a whatever, I'm a whatever). Because you're talking about beliefs that people hold so near and dear to their hearts, that not sharing those beliefs can cause personal offense. Notice I'm not specifying any particular group here, because it happens on all 18,546 sides.

Christians may believe that we stemmed from apes and evolved into modern man, but they're probably going to hold the belief that it was by design. Atheists might believe that energy leaves the body upon death, makes sense given whole Law of Thermodynamics, but they're not going to consider it a soul. There are mutually exclusive theories out there, but they aren't all mutually exclusive just because they stem from extraordinarily different systems of belief.

I started to fix my typing errors but since it's after midnight I say grammar schmammar!

Peace out, word to your mother, holla, or whatever it is the cool kids say these days.

Because you're talking about beliefs that people hold so near and dear to their hearts, that not sharing those beliefs can cause personal offense. Notice I'm not specifying any particular group here, because it happens on all 18,546 sides.

I agree that we are discussing beliefs held very dear to our makeup.

What happens when a student is trying to become a scientist and the result of his experiment comes out opposite of what his belief structure says should have occurred? Does he modify his belief structure or ignore the data? Or does he modify the experiment until it comes out in agreement with his belief structure?

My step-father wanted to belief that he could cure diabetes by meditation. He believed he could mentally send antibodies to the damaged area(?) and cure any disease.

He would call me up continually and ask me to go to the drugstore for him because he had run out of test strips for his blood sugar meter. He used about 150 strips a week instead of the 3 per day, 21 strips each week.

I finally figured out what he was doing when I compared his meter's memory and his spreadsheet's sugar count history log. He was putting his blood on strip after strip, until he could get an artificially low (and false) reading.

It is hard to give up one's beliefs, even when science stares you in the face.

He did say be all things to all people, but that was to be a light to them. To be able to meet them where they are, not as "self righteous religous people" such as were the Pharesses. You are taking that scripture way out of context.

Jesus also didn't go seeking out the Pharisees to have religious debates. He just answered them or was showing them their "ignorance".

Serious discussion about the gospel is best kept with other believers.

If you bring these type of questions to people that don't even have the basics down, it is just a bad testimony because they don't understand where you are coming from or what your true motives are.

We are not to toss pearls...

We are to use our "walk" and if people see us as arguementative it gives a bad name to what Christ was trying to teach, love.

I see no love in this thread from the believer which is supposed to be you.

This is not the place for this. I think you are doing a diservice to our call. I think you have good intentions, but then you know what they say about good intentions.

I don't want to get drawn into this thread of going back and forth.

The question you have to ask yourself, is "am I helping or hindering".

I don't see any helping, just hindering.

I don't mean to attack you in any way, as I said, I think your intentions are pure, but I seriously do not think Jesus went around provoking people by being argumentative to argumentative people.

You give good post, BabyG, and thank you for the above quoted one and your earlier post, too!

Cusano, you know that a number of us have repeatedly said that your tone is less than cool. Hectoring is never an effective way to win folks over. As you know by now, I am an atheist. Nevertheless, there are a great many Christians who post on this site whom I both admire and kinda envy for their sweetness and their generosity of heart and spirit. These are all people who do not hide their belief and they are all interested with interacting in a positive manner with others who may have divergent views and who also post on this site. This, as you know, has not been the case with you.

From what I understand of Jesus's activities, He went around preaching and performing miracles. Those who chose to listen and follow did so. His contre-temps with the money changers in the temple was related to a specific issue, that of introducing Mammon into God's house. Citing this incident as a reason to hector and rail against those of us whom you view as being infidels does not follow.

Might I suggest the following approach? You examine what it is about your belief that brings you joy and certainty and then you explain this to us and you tell us that you hope that we will be open to listening to you. You then follow this up with a prayer to your God that he will assist you by enabling us to understand your message. I am aware that this may sound impertinent coming from an atheist but these are my thoughts on this matter.