Corliss

Cleo's mom I love your political astuteness. You go for the facts and you know where to find them. Keep it up. Corliss

BJean I agree with you whole heartedly about a woman's right to have a child. I stand firm, that is her right. I believe the Brinkerhoff quote is right on point. I believe that rape or incest or danger to her own life are among the circumstances she considered. I don't believe most women want to abort even in those circumstances, I think when they do they are indeed "driven." I was faced with scary health circumstances when pregnant and was advised to abort, I could not and did not and had a fine healthy girl. I was lucky, I had a good outcome, but if my daughter or my grand daughter were faced with that same circumstance I would not push them to make the same decision. I was the only one who had the right to make it and I did without discussing it with family or friends. It was a given.

What she pays all this and has a child and doesn't get a grant? How about child care deduction on income tax? No there is no shame in getting a government subsidized loan and no shame in getting a government grant. The shame is in accepting help that is available but begrudging it for others. I honestly hope your daughter and anyone else's gets anything they are entitled to, I have no problem with it, I do have a problem with hipocracy and greed. I hate hearing people say "the help I am getting is okay, but those other people who might need more help they are just bums. They won't try.They just want a government hand out." It is like as long as you get yours its all good but let the rest root hog or die. Its not a hand out its a hand up Patty. My point is we all accept government subsidies. Most government waste is on the other end. It is in cleaning up the mess. I always wonder how much the people who make such a big deal out of social programs contribute financially. I pay a lot of taxes and I don't begrudge my money being used wisely to pay for primary care, child care, school grants and loans for those who need it. I do resent having to pay for imprisonment, executions, wars, long term, acute and intensive care services which could have been avoided with primary care and medication not to mention health and sex education and contraception. It really amazes me when it turns out that so many who oppose health care and child care subsidies, and assistance for the poor, along with opposing a womans choice and sex education are on disability benefits. It is just one of those mysteries of life. I hope my grandkids grow up to be successful and with the same work ethic that I have, yet I also hope that they are caring and compassionate enough to be willing to give a hand up to those who need it. They will probably do just that with a combination of their own resources, help from family and what ever programs they are eligible for. I will certainly do everything I can to cheer them on. We have been fortunate enough to scrape resources together to finish college in our family which included jobs as factory workers and doing housework for others. While going to graduate school I could not have survived without the VA grant which I had for my tuition even though I worked as a waitress, a tech and as a census taker during this time while raising my daughter. At times I was able to get food stamps though i never qualified for AFDC. Now students can't get food stamps unless they work full time. There were no child care subsidies back then. Today there is a very limited amount of money available for child care but very very little. It is not available to most who need it and is not sufficient for the few who have it to finish college while they children are cared for. If there is family child care available a single mom has a chance of getting through school but reality is that family care is not always available for whatever reason. The current system is wasteful, the money is thrown wrecklessly at the wrong things. If you build a shoddy building out of flimsy and flamable materials with poor structual design and engineering and a storm, a fire or an earthquake hits then you are going to have to spend a fortune on clean up and rebuilding. If more money were spent initially on a firm foundation, a sturdy design with good materials which are less flamable the maintainence costs are going to be much less and the building is going to be functional for a long log time. It should last many life times. This is a sound investment which may look frivolous on the front end but it is instead a gift to posterity. If this works in buildings it most certainly will work with people.

The private insurance companies get to make those decisions now! I think I would rather have anyone making it than the profit driven insurance company.

Community colleges are tax funded. Hmmmmmmm! Somebody else is paying for your kids college. Geeeshhh! If they went to public elementary and high school someone else paid. If they used public recreation, somone else paid. How come its okay for subsidy for the ones you use but not for the children of the extremely poor? Yep, and I bet your kids making $8 and hour didn't accept any government loans or pell grants to get through school. Of course they could make it on $8 and hour paying $400 per month rent and pay tuition even at a community college or trades school. Right!

So he went to private schools as did you? Elementary through college right?

I didn't say all, I specifically said many and I was talking about those who oppose health care yet would be the very ones who would most benefit from it. Those are the people who follow along mindlessly. No reason to be offended if you are wealthy and have excellent coverage and of course earn over $200,000 per year. It will be in your best interest to preserve the status quo.

It is cheaper to pay for education and give them a chance to become taxpayers than to send them to prison and support them. Do your kids all go to private school? If not we are all paying for their education too, as we should.

I don't have a problem with people owning hand guns. I just feel like they should be registered and severe penalties for those who possess them without registration.

Okay heres my thoughts (in red) on the statement from BJEAN (in black) and Patty Green (in green). Originally Posted by BJean Some of these right wing (I guess Republican, although I'm not convinced all Republicans feel this way) are just so hard to figure. One of their major issues of contention is to make abortion illegal. I mean to say that, for some of the right wing, is the ONLY real seriously important issue on the agenda. Allowing the killing of human life should be high on everyones agenda. We can't figure out how there are some in this country who allow it so freely. What About helping prevent unwanted pregnancies instead of focusing on forcing women to carry to term, how about helping support daycare for those who want to have their children nd raise them themselves but have too little in resources? Interestingly, they love the death penalty and support it implicitly. That's because when you allow the death penalty it is used on the GUILTY, and when you allow abortion it is used on the INNOCENT. In the case where an innocent person is falsley convicted he is just as dead as the guilty person who is executed. They also believe everyone should have the right to bear arms of any kind. Never mind that killing with guns by accident is a problem and being able to grab a gun and quickly kill in a rage is a problem and gangs carrying guns and using them on the streets is a big problem in some cities. When you outlaw guns, then only the outlaws have guns. People with the intent or ability within them to kill others will use anything to kill them, they don't need a gun. If Joe Shmoe wants Suzy Q killed, he will get the job done with a knife. If the law were to take away weapons from the citizenry, then only those in authority and criminals will have them. This puts the regular law abiding citizen at a disadvantage and allows for government control and criminal action without defense to be used against you.As stated in the Second Amendment of our Constitution, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." Now come the arguments. Who are "the people?" What does "bear arms" mean? Does "the people" refer to the "well regulated militia?" Should our states still have "a well regulated militia?" All these details make arguing difficult and keep many picky and persnickety people from seeing the truth. Self-defense is protected by law. The Constitution says the people have the right to keep and bear arms. And that right "shall not be infringed." Why, then, is there still an argument? If one or two students at Virginia Tech could have had concealed weapons, or if a classroom could have had a gun stashed under the teacher's podium, the massacre may have only been a one- or two-fatality incident, rather than a shooting spree that ended in suicide. I personally have no problem with well trained people having permits to own handguns The problems come in when people who are not permitted carry concealed weapons or for those who believe we need AKA 47s for personal protection and machine guns to hunt with. But their major anger and intolerance seems to stem from their anger about women having the choice in the question of abortion. They talk about not wanting government interference in their right to buy guns and carry them. They don't want the government telling them have to pay taxes. They don't want the government having oversight or any control over the insurance companies who make billions on their health care policies. And they bellyache about government intrusion in their lives as being a very bad thing. It's actually "TOO much intrusion" that we belly ache about. And, I could say that liberals want MORE intrusion as their answer to every problem. It seems that most right wingers are just fine with intrusion as long as it does not affect their pocket books or their status. Mainly as long as the intrusion affects OTHERS and not them. Unfortunately many who hold the right wing point of view are simply following along like blind stupid sheep. They don't want to pay taxes and they don't want any government programs of the welfare type - they think everybody should be able to work, as they do. Unfortunately many of them are not working and are the very ones who benefit from disability and unemployment. Had a long discussion with such a fellow at a health care reform rally back in the summer in Nashville. He was disabled and had no insurance. He was applying for disability benifits and stupidly and blindly was opposing universal coverage. Sadly he is not alone. I also work with many nurses who see the patients who cannot afford medications come through the revolving doors of our hospital in worse condition every time. A couple of hundred dollars per months in medications could avoid millions in outlay for intensive care and long term care. Many of my coworkers are not even capable of seeing the economics of it when we have the evidence right under our noses. They don't want to pay for somebody elses mistakes. They don't want generations on welfare. They think it is unfair to have to give part of their salary to someone who is on the dole. We want government to pare back on their spending and charity to others. This is true. We can't afford it. If we had a surplus of funds and we weren't going bankrupt, that would be a different story, but that's not the case. Sure, it's great to help the poor, but not if you are going to put you children and grandchildren into financial ruin because of it. This is what you liberals don't get. You just want to spend, spend, spend, and let the next person worry about where to get the money to repay it all. Then there are programs in the working that are soooooo wasteful and unnecessary, yet they continue on and on. You computations makes no sense. Invest money early on to avoid higher costs later. The prison system costs a fortune. We could save so much with a better investment in day care and school programs with more money available for assisting people who try to get ahead. It all ties in with gearing health care toward prevention. Our country needs a massive overhaul and only then can we stop wasting money to imprison and execute and provide expensive emergency and acute medical care to so many of our citizens. But they want the government to intrude in the case of a woman's choice.They want children or women who become impregnated without their consent and against their wishes, to be forced into carrying those embryos to full term. What happens after that to those women and those babies is not their concern. Although they say they know lots of people who want to adopt them. We want life (all life) to be cherished and not abused or murdered. Unless it is the life of someone who has been convicted rightly or WRONGFULLY of a crime. How can we give those people their lives back? How is that an answer? They want to make a law to force women to have babies in order to be baby mills for their friends who need babies? NOT to be baby mills for our friends, but to save the lives of the babies being murdered. Nobody wants babies to be murdered. The gist of the issue is whether or not a woman should have a right to end an unwanted pregnancy, not kill a baby. Again we disagree with the time at which the fetus becomes a separate life and we will never agree on that, so why not work together and put some money into prevention of unwanted pregnancies in a rational sane manner and at the same time, help subsidize families who do not have resources to provide a healthy living for their children. It is very shortsighted to advocate forced child bearing while not being willing to see that the child has a chance to grow up healthy and has a chance to avoid the pitfalls of poverty. It is ridiculous to say Liberals want babies murdered, again that is a lie Patty. Not just your lie but the lie that is being plastered across the US. Liberals want to kill babies and grandmas. Hogwash! Right wingers want to starve kids and old folks! Hogwash! Stop with the stupid blanket statements and listen for a change. And to heck with the mothers and their lives. Because if that mother is unable to make a living for herself and her child because she lost her job when she became pregnant and can't get another one because she has a baby, that's just too bad. Don't ask the right wing to pay any taxes to come to her rescue. It's her problem. She shouldn't have had sex. I am sorry, it just makes absolutely no sense to me and it seems heartless and cruel and convoluted. And did I mention stupid? It seems real, real, stupid. It is n0t only stupid it is unrealistic! Corliss

I too think it is admirable that you are willing to reach out and serve Him by caring for the less fortunate. It seems that in spite of your punitive unforgiving stance you do a lot of positive. Unfortunately many conservatives are opposed to service to the "undeserving." One of the saddest conversations I ever had was with a young missionary wife who stated that they "were not rice missionaries!" When I asked her what a "rice missionary" was she told me that they fed the spirit by preaching the gospel, they did not feed the people and then preach because this would mean that the congregation was only there for the food. I was so turned off by this young woman, I can't begin to describe it. It still amazes me when people over look deprivation and hunger yet expect people to trust God. I think when people look at the background of murderers and thieves they often see a lot of deprivation and neediness. Too bad we as a society don't do more sooner. We probably wouldn't have to deal with as many people considering abortion or facing imprisonment or the death penalty. Yes Patty when you say "Liberals believe its okay to kill babies, etc." that is a lie because you are not willing to listen to what we are saying. You automatically revert to what you believe the Bible says. You are not willing to weigh it out. That is the same as if I were to say "Conservatives believe it is okay to starve babies." That is a statement I would never make. There are loads of liberals who I do not see eye to eye with and loads of conservatives who have beliefs that I share. Generally my beliefs line up closer with most liberals beliefs and I proudly own that title. I tell people I am a card carrying liberal and proud of it. I think however that we all need to talk about those things we have in common and listen to one another to try to find answers and solutions for the things that we both see as problems. I think we all agree that teen pregnancy, crime, homelessness and poverty are problems. We need to put our energies into finding solutions. The thing which is keeping us from reaching some effective solutions in our country today is the polarization of the right and the left. Corliss

TY!

Well, you spoke a lot of truth. It is obvious that you THINK. I don't agree with everything you say but I do appreciate honest appraisal. I intentionally avoid patronising businesses that advertise "Christian Owned" because I believe that is missuse and abuse of religion when it is obviously for monetary gain. Sort of reminds me of the story of the money changers in the temple. I am glad you are there and if I were in your area, I would have a job for you today as I just called a plumber, lol! Corliss

Thank you so much for those statements. They are so true and are a concise explanation of is wrong with America today! Christ ministered outside the gates. He acted up and was crucified due to his revolutionary teachings and behaviors. Conservative Christians just don't get it. Corliss

TY BJ. I am so glad to read so many thinking peoples statements on these issues. I just get so tired of man's inhumanity to man, judgementalism and condemnation of one another all in the name of Christ. That is not the Christ whose life I attempt to learn from at least on my better days. Corliss

Yes, as in telling the truth. Specifically, "thou shalt not bear false witness." The blanket statements you make about liberals are false witness. You are not the only one, there are loads of folks who go about ranting this drivel. As far as fear goes, you are obviously afraid to examine evidence which is contrary to your precious belief system. You don't have to make choices you can just go right along and do as you are taught. You don't have to test your faith, because you never seriously consider any alternatives. There is lots of security there. What about feeding the hungry and comforting the sick? Visiting the prisoner? Clothing the poor? How high on your list of priorities are those things. Many religious conservatives feel that these very actions are sinful and result in "taking care of those who won't take care of themselves." I said earlier I don't generally bother to discuss this with people who claim Biblical authority, and I probably should not go any further here.

Nope, no babies should be killed or starved to death. Embryos are not babies, I am not sure at what point a fetus becomes a baby, I think around 5 months. An embryo does not have the development neccesary to scream or be aware of pain. In theory I don't believe that capital punishment is right, however there are some situations that I have a hard time disapproving. Your statements are so blind. If you were to even say "some liberals" they would be a lot closer to truth, but basically they are just very presumptive and sound ignorant. If that is thinking, PLEASE, just let my brain rot. Corliss

Thank you so much! Corliss:thumbup:

So right! It amazes me that people can be so self rightous. Those who take the bible so literally conveniently leave out the parts that hold themselves accountable for their failures or reproach them for their acts especially of condemantion. If they want to celebrate their psuedo-piety, if they want to have their lives ruled by fear, that is okay for them, but I don't need it and don't try to force it on me or my kids or grandkids. Corliss

I generally do not argue with people who feel like they have biblical authority because it is all based on what makes them feel good to believe. It makes most people feel safer if they maintain a fundamental view and expression of their religious beliefs. I am Christian but definately do not hold fundamentalist views. I believe the Bible is not to be interpreted or applied literally. If we did interpret it literally accross the board this would be one savage society. That is what the Taliban is doing with Islam. Lord help us all if the ultra right wingers get anymore power. Have you folks seen a movie or read the book called "The Handmaiden's Tale? This "tale" shows us what it would belike if we were indeed a theocracy. Lets hope we remain a secular democracy. Corliss

Same here, I just got out of the hospital from gall bladder surgery and small hernia repair. I only have 4 small incisions and I will be off 5 wks minimum. I was going to be off 6 but had to wait a week for surgery due to infection on my finger. I would feel better being off 6 wks but I will schedule myself to work the last of the eek and will avoid lifting for those first nights. We do that for one another for a week or so, but its not good form to expect someoe else to do all your lifting 4-6 wks. My psych teaching starts back this coming Wed. and I will be there for it as it is lite duty but my floor nursing, no way would I think of going back in less than a month. We don't have lite duty there either. We have all got to take care of ourselves. Corliss

That is a different test. It can easily stay alive with the help of any caring person. It is not physically grown to the mothers body after it is born. That is the difference there. It doesn't depend on a direct access to mothers bodily function. It is dependent on someone chosing to care for it. A tumor or appendix cannot continue to stay alive if it is not getting nutrients directly from a host source. Neither can an early trimester fetus. Corliss

That is sad and tragic. It is most unfortunate that these women didn't have effective contraception available. So much saddness could have been averted. I cannot speak from standpoint of having abortion but I chose not to have an abortion when my physician reccommended it due to my health. I just knew I would be okay and live through the difficult pregnancy(pre-eclampsia, and toxemia). Who knows, was that the adolescent feelings of immortality or was it some actual God given knowledge? At any rate, I did not make a concious choice to become pregnant and was devistated when I did. It is ironic that in that day and age, 1970, that I was offered a theraputic abortion but birth control pills were not available to unmarried females at least in my area. At 18 I felt forced to rely on the next best thing which turned out to be highly ineffective. I know that I made the right choice NOT to abort, however it was my CHOICE and should remain so in early pregnancy. Corliss

An appendix is alive as is a tumor, however neither of them are capable of existing independently from the host, neither is the fetus less than 3 months post conception. We don't really know when the soul evolves or enters the body of the fetus. Some religions believe life begins with the first breath. I personally don't know. I do believe that there should be limits on late trimester abortions, because the fetus is viable outside the womb. The second trimester is foggy to me, I am not sure that there is or is not a conciousness at that time. With modern technology some babies who have delivered in the 6th and even 5th month can survive. This is a very very complicated issue. I envy those who are so clear in their beliefs of right and wrong on this subject, but I am not so clear. As a thinking person, I see too many sides for this to be a really clear cut issue. Bith control or contraception doesn't kill a baby. That is abortion whether it is chemically induced or surgical. If we don't pay for birth control and sex education, we pay for the rearing of children with inadequate support systems and we pay through the prison systems. It is all a part of a circle of defeatism. Corliss

That is why though I am pro-choice, I don't take abortion lightly. Birth control would have been a much better option for the 15 year old who didn't have access to contraceptives or had too much shame and fear to use them. It would be great if everone chose abstinence until marraige but unfortunately even many of the kids wearing the promise rings don't wait. Corliss