Ok, this started out as a rebuttal to an argument on the Healthcare Thread, but I realized that I was digressing to my Antiwar stance rather than my Pro HealthCare stance so I decided to start anther topic.

You know, if we would have taken our Peace Dividend at the end of the Cold War and invested it here at home we could have had a 21st century information architecture, a completely revitalized bridge/rail/and road system, universal health care, top notch education, etc. Instead we poured even more money into defense and have little to show for it. In 2008, the US spent 41.5% of the world’s military dollars, the next ten countries combined spent only 21.1% of the world military capital, China spent a tiny 5.8%. Now keep in mind these are not percentages of GDP, they are percentages of the world military spend.

What has all that spending gotten us? Let’s take a look back to 1980 which is about when the USSR started to collapse.

- We lost a Marine Barracks in Lebanon in 1983

- We invaded Grenada in 1983 (huge victory)

- We invaded Panama in 1989 (I guess we won… Wait, what did we win?)

- We failed to oust Saddam Husain in the first Gulf War in 1990

- Cold War ends approximately 1991

- Blackhawk down in 1993

- World Trade Center Bombing 1993

- We occupied Haiti in 1994

- We were part of NATO in Bosnia/Herzegovina in 1996 (success?)

- Khobar Towers Bombing in Saudi Arabia 1996

- Our embassy was bombed in Kenya in 1998

- USS Cole attacked in Yemen in 2000

- We were attacked on 9/11/2001

- We wrongly attacked Iraq in 2003

- We can’t get out of Afghanistan

- North Korea has Nukes

- Iran is very close to having Nukes

How much money are we talking about here? Well, if we look at data from 2008, discretionary spending was $941B, of that, Defense was $553B (plus $306B in an off budget supplemental). So in 2008 we spent more than double the money on defense than on EVERYTHING else the government did that year. Really? More than double? Yes, really. This is where your money is going. Eisenhower was right, beware the Military Industrial Complex.

You know what I think? I think we should have a draft. Compel everyone to go over there and fight if it’s that important. I bet any misguided support for these stupid wars would dry up if we all had to participate in them with our own blood. In fact, I think we would be less likely to even get into these situations with a draft. War SHOULD be hard. Every single US soldier that dies over there should have an impact here at home, and it should hurt your soul, if it doesn’t then you are NOT close enough to the issue and have no business saying we should be there. Why are we even there? We can’t win, so why even stay? The goal in Afghanistan was to oust Al Qaeda, ok done – they have left Afghanistan and so should we.

Now before you folks on the Right start beating me up with the flag I will remind you that I served honorably in the military during the first Gulf War (6 years, US Navy).

Good question. It is true our soldiers are really depleted and exhausted from numerous rounds in our wars.

However, it would be political suicide for Barack Obama. I really don’t see this happening, but it is good topic for conversation.

I won't answer the poll. I can't say for sure yes or for sure no.

PS: Kartman - thank you so much for your service. I do truly appreciate it.

Edited November 17, 200916 yr by LilMissDiva

I voted for him because I thought for once we might get somebody in office that does what is right and not just what collects votes. Health Care is right and he should just go for it. These wars are wrong and he should end them The only way there will be enough outcry for to get us out of them is when they start impacting everyone equally. Far too many of the soldiers dying over there are from rural areas and the working poor. If a war is right and just we should all pay the price for it collectively. More often than not (and certainly not for these two) war is neither right nor just and people won’t put up with them if they are compelled to participate.

I voted for him because I thought for once we might get somebody in office that does what is right and not just what collects votes. Health Care is right and he should just go for it. These wars are wrong and he should end them The only way there will be enough outcry for to get us out of them is when they start impacting everyone equally. Far too many of the soldiers dying over there are from rural areas and the working poor. If a war is right and just we should all pay the price for it collectively. More often than not (and certainly not for these two) war is neither right nor just and people won’t put up with them if they are compelled to participate.

Kartman, thank you for your service. When I was in college, we had a draft during the Vietnam war and even with a draft, the military was still mostly the poor and rural. The rich and connected were able to get deferrments or into the reserves (or Air National Guard) - like Cheney, Bush, Limbaugh - who later became chickenhawks.

You are right in that the current wars do not impact the American people equally. Many do not have an emotional interest or investment in them. Nor has the public been asked to sacrifice for the wars. Instead, bush gave the rich a tax cut and borrowed for the 2 wars. No one, not one person in 6 years ever asked him how he was going to pay for these wars.

As to the spending on military - well, that is the whole guns and butter issue. Those on the right just want more and bigger guns while those of us on the left see the humanity of helping the least among us.

Kartman...let me start by thanking you for your serivice to our country.

I voted "no" and my opinion is strictly based on the fact that I had a HUGE fear of the draft when my son was in Iraq a couple of years back and still have the fear as I have another son who could go over at any given time. I would just as soon my sons do their missions with others that signed up for the job.

Kartman, thank you for your service. When I was in college, we had a draft during the Vietnam war and even with a draft, the military was still mostly the poor and rural. The rich and connected were able to get deferrments or into the reserves (or Air National Guard) - like Cheney, Bush, Limbaugh - who later became chickenhawks.

Then we should do the draft in a different way. I don’t have hard evidence, but I’m sure with some digging I could show that rules were changed in the draft for Vietnam versus WWII. I know for a fact that many famous and wealthy Americans served, fought, and died in WWII. Whatever was done differently in Vietnam should not be allowed to happen again. A draft should be a way to equalize the pain and suffering across the whole population, people should not get breaks because of their connections or status (to be fair, Clinton got out of serving too).

Kartman...let me start by thanking you for your serivice to our country.

I voted "no" and my opinion is strictly based on the fact that I had a HUGE fear of the draft when my son was in Iraq a couple of years back and still have the fear as I have another son who could go over at any given time. I would just as soon my sons do their missions with others that signed up for the job.

Apples, that is the point. War should be a hard decision and should affect us all equally. I think far too many people that want us to continue fighting around the world have no vested interest in terms of fighting and dying. If war is right and just (and I do believe it is at times) then we should all share in the cost through our collective blood and treasure.

I think going into Afghanistan to oust Al Qaeda was right and just at the time that we went in. Al Qaeda has since left Afghanistan and so should we. We have no reason to be there anymore and in the end, all we will have to show for it will be more of our precious soldiers fighting and dying. We went into Iraq based on lies and propaganda, we should not have gone then and should not be there now. If we can’t justify putting our sons and daughters at risk in war then we should not put others at risk either. If fighting over there is not good enough for some of us, it is not good enough for any of us.

Kartman, I do agree with you whole heartedly. However I'm not sure by making the draft is the right way to prove this. I think most of us do know that the war in Iraq was pure propaganda; however I won’t go into why I think so. Most would call me crazy… lol

I don’t usually tread into the political threads. I’m way too far left extremist for most taste.

I don't know about a draft for this particular war, but I am a strong supporter of ALL young Americans doing a 2 yr military stint similar to what Israel does.

Perhaps the thing to do is to require that the cost of all wars be deficit neutral just like those who are demanding that healthcare reform be. That is- the war has to be paid for, not add to the deficit. And if it doesn't - then raise taxes to support it. Call it a war tax. And see how supportive of war people would be then.

I mean the cost of this healthcare reform has been debated ad nauseum, but do you recall one person asking Pres. Bush or Obama how the wars are going to be paid for? Or how much they would raise the deficit?

I am not male so really it doesnt involve me.. But Being as i have TWO siblings that were milarty and one that is still in Active duty.. I think we should still be able to draft, and Being that we have soldiers over in Iraq for there 3 and 4 deployments we need new manpower over there!

I am a firm believer everyone should give service to their country one way or another.. I cant go into the service due to health problems i was born with.. but I help in different ways..

Perhaps the thing to do is to require that the cost of all wars be deficit neutral just like those who are demanding that healthcare reform be. That is- the war has to be paid for, not add to the deficit. And if it doesn't - then raise taxes to support it. Call it a war tax. And see how supportive of war people would be then.

I mean the cost of this healthcare reform has been debated ad nauseum, but do you recall one person asking Pres. Bush or Obama how the wars are going to be paid for? Or how much they would raise the deficit?

I don’t know how they are going to be paid for, but I do know that conservative estimates are coming in at about $100B per year for Afghanistan alone. $100B!!! What the hell do we get for $100B a year? We have no strategic interest in Afghanistan, we have no reason to be there, and we absolutely can’t “win” there (even if we quadrupled the proposed troop increase). Keep in mind that the Soviets had an order of magnitude more troops there than we do and were by all accounts brutal in their attempts at insurgent suppression and didn’t even come close to winning there. What makes anyone think we have even a chance to do anything different there? As far as I am concerned we did what we set out to do there, we got Al Qaeda out of the country, now we should leave too. What Americans don’t seem to realize is that there is a significant portion of the Afghan population that sees us as nothing more than conquerors and occupiers (which we are) and will fight for generations until we give up (just like the Soviets, British, and Alexander before us).

What could we do with that $100B/year instead? Well, the current Senate health care proposal costs about $85B per year. Sounds like a much better use of our money to me. How many American lives could be saved each year with health care? How many American lives will be lost each year that we are in Afghanistan? It’s a no brainer to me.

I am not male so really it doesnt involve me.. But Being as i have TWO siblings that were milarty and one that is still in Active duty.. I think we should still be able to draft, and Being that we have soldiers over in Iraq for there 3 and 4 deployments we need new manpower over there!

I am a firm believer everyone should give service to their country one way or another.. I cant go into the service due to health problems i was born with.. but I help in different ways..

In my opinion it should absolutely involve you and other women. I believe we should have a draft for every able bodied American under 25 years old (male and female). People over 25 should have some stateside contribution. If this stupid war is cause for some to suffer, we should all suffer until we end it.

Again, I don’t consider myself a pacifist, I do believe there is at times justification for war. But justified or not, the burden of war should be shouldered by the entire population (as it was in WWII and WWI) otherwise we don’t really have a vested interest in the agony of the war. I personally believe both of these particular wars are unjust and are being fought at the peril of our nation. If more Americans had skin in the game (if it was them, their sons and daughters, or their family dying over there) these wars would have succumb to public opinion a long time ago.

War is hell and it should be seen for what it is. 20 year old kids are dying every day over there. Many more are coming home with missing limbs, PTSD, brain injuries and countless other injuries. I could care less about the long line of people waiting for the best deal at Wal-Mart on Black Friday, the news should be showing the agony and suffering this senseless war is causing to our young soldiers.

I agree 100%. I don't have any military experience ut I do have 2 brothers who served. They are pro military but they also feel that we should get out. The reasons you stated above about why you voted for Obama seem tobe the same as mine. I am still not willing to give up on him if we still have to be in these wars, they might be to difficult to give up. In for a penny, in for a pound some say.....