KartMan

Why stop at medicine, shouldn't everything be free for everyone shouldn't we all just get to relax and hang out all day while the government takes care of all of us?

Absolutely not. A fair percentage of income (that includes all income) should be reserved for taxes. The revenue from those taxes should be spread across the things that society deems important. Obviously, we all have different opinions of what we think is appropriate. I for one abhor the idea that my tax dollars are being spent on wars that appear to have no end and continue to kill countless civilians and our precious soldiers. You on the other hand do not feel that health care is a “right” and that it should not be paid for via tax dollars. This difference of opinion is meant to be addressed by our electoral process. Last November, the voters picked the guy that said he would steer us away from the wars (I think he has done a less than stellar job in this respect) and provide Health Care reform for all. He got Health Care reform passed. It is not exactly the plan I wanted, but it’s a huge step in the right direction as far as I’m concerned.

Is this America or not? Why was Bush able to do the things he did behind the scenes and with false data presented to congress to get their approval to let him decide to take us into war, among other things, but we never heard a peep out of them when at least some of the shennanigans were revealed?

Because like him or not, he had the nads to push his agenda through, the Republicans in the House and Senate are the same way. In my view, Republicans have a much smaller tent, but they know how to stay on message and how to keep unity within their party. One of the great things about the Democratic Party is it’s wide diversity – unfortunately that very diversity doesn’t always give them the numbers on the vote when it comes to the floor. Since they don’t always vote in lock-step the way the republicans do, each and every vote is a nail biter, even when they have a super majority.

Then here is you saying medicare for all. One post says medicare for all, another says medicare is socialized medicine, so, 1+1=2, you want socialized medicine for everyone.

It doesn’t matter what you “think” I said or if Medicare is Socialized Medicine (it’s not), I don’t want to fight with you about semantics. What does matter (at least to me) is that Medicare works well today for those that have access to it. I do think that it is underfunded and fraud has to be closely watched (it always does), but it actually works fairly well. People pay into it throughout their lives, they get it when they are eligible, they pick the doctor they want, that doctor gets paid on time, and here is the real catch – those that have it wouldn’t let you take it away for anything in the world.

Why not provide that same basic health care to everyone in the same manner? The tradeoff would be that you would pay a higher Medicare Tax (perish the thought), but you wouldn’t have to pay a premium to an insurance company. Now unless you just love your insurance company I don’t see how this is a bad deal. I have said before that there is still a place in this type of system for insurance companies to exist. They can sell insurance for everything over and above whatever is deemed to be “basic care”.

Grammar police? Really? Over half of my posts are posted from my iphone. I always find it amusing when people online decide to nit pick grammar, I've had a few other people try it with me before. They always think it shows something, about themselves, and the person with poor grammar or spelling. But nevertheless I've always been able to go back and find dozens and dozens of their own mistakes. If you want to make attacks towards people for grammatical errors, how about your pal phil, who uses the most random a$$ parenthesis I've ever seen in my life, they make no sense whatsoever, And make reading his post's very difficult.

I have horrible spelling and grammar (which is even worse on the iphone), so I can relate. I agonize over it on the computer and usually am able to clean most of it up (although I usually spot something later on a reread). I don’t think that problem has anything do with our political views or even our intelligence for that matter.

I got an interesting question to ask about the new health care. One of my clients asked me today and I really had no answer. If a mother is on welfare and she has a child that is 24 and lives with her, can that child get back on her welfare insurance? I thought this was interesting and if not what does a kid who lives at home do to get insurance if they got kicked off that welfare insurance at 18 and that is the only insurance she has? Is this the group of people that won't be able to get the insurance even if they are poor? Those not connected to mom and pop insurance but still live at home ecause they don't make enough to pay for it?

If the 24 year old is truly that poor, they likely would qualify for Medicaid on their own so that would be a moot point.

Ten states (so far) have lined up to sue over obamacare, florida AG says,

They can sue if they want , but they will lose and they will waste a ton of money doing so.

Here is interesting piece on why they are doomed to fail:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/03/24/jost.health.bill.challenges/index.html?hpt=T1

In full disclose, this guy is clearly a Democrat – so he his undoubtedly biased, but most legal scholars that I have read in the last few days come to very similar conclusions.

Read his post, he called medicare, socialized medicine. And prior to that he had advocated for medicare for all. If that doesn't equal socialized medicine for all tell me what it equals?

Look, if you are going try to quote me, at least read what I said. I said what I am advocating is NOT Socialized Medicine. I went on to say that our VA and the British systems ARE socialized medicine because the whole system (Administration, Doctors, and Hospitals) are paid by and are part of the government. What you are probably getting confused on is that I said we already have a system the likes of what I am advocating in Medicare.

I didn't call obamacare socialized medicine I don't think, unless thats another one of those pesky post's that keep disappearing like kartman was having trouble with earlier before he decided he couldn't win that argument because he was making stuff up and trying to represent it as my opinion.

I have no idea what are talking about. I never decided I couldn’t win an argument with you. Why would I? I firmly believe in my convictions and am thoroughly convinced that your reasoning is fundamentally flawed. I haven’t gone back to every single message in the thread, so maybe I didn’t see it. Or, it’s quite possible that whatever you are referring to did not interest me enough to warrant a response.

kartman it may not be the plan that most Americans want, but it is the plan that they need. Most Americans seem to still believe the stigma that was planted in their brains for years about "socialized" medicine.

BJean, Don’t misunderstand me – I am happy that we got what we did. But I am certainly not ready to give up on what we “should” have gotten, which is Universal Health Care.

It's the right wing against the president. President Obama is evil incarnate.

There has not been one president in my lifetime, which is considerable, who has done more to cross party lines and try to be a fair and moderate representative of the people. But the Republican crazies, the extremists, the birthers and Sarah Palin all still hate Obama and blame him and perhaps the Speaker of the House for things that have not happened and will never happen. And they scream it at the top of their lungs. It is just plain disgusting and embarrassing. Oh and stupid. Did I mention stupid? Very, very stupid.

You are right, the opposition to this plan has always been more about opposition to Obama rather than to the concepts of the plan.

Socialized insurance administration? Well if the government pays the ins. and the ins. pays the doctors, then in turn, the government is paying the doctors, so.... socialized medicine again. Maybe not complete socialized medicine, because most hospitals are government ran yet, but it's still pretty much socialized medicine. Your calling Medicare socialized medicine, and your advocating for medicare for all, doesn't that mean socialized medicine for all?

No, you misunderstood me. I said that those other programs were Socialized Medicine and “Medicare for All” could at best described as Socialized Insurance (or Administration). The point in this thinking is that we do a very good job of administrating Medicare today (we just don’t fund it properly), doctors prefer it to private insurance because they don’t have nearly the administration cost that they do with private healthcare, the people that have Medicare now wouldn’t give it up for anything (which should tell you how good it is).

Socialized medicine, with a splash of free market, that would undoubtedly fail pretty rapidly. That is what you want. Thats fine, however the majority of America does not agree with you. Myself included. If you want this type of coverage, move somewhere it is offered. No one else in the world can do that at the scale that we would have to do it. So it would undoubtedly fail eventually as well. Canada has trouble with it on a scale 1/10th of America. Sweden? 1/30th of America I believe. So unless someone like China, does it and it works well for everyone, not just some, lets not be the guinea pig, when the consequence is so large, and the outcome is so certain.

It’s not socialized medicine – that is nothing more than a talking point. At best, it might be described as socialized insurance administration. Socialized medicine would be more like our VA or the British system (I’m not advocating for either of those). In those systems, the administration, hospitals, and doctors are ALL employees of the government. We actually do it here today, its called Medicare. And here is a surprise, it actually works and the people that get it like it pretty well. The part of Medicare that doesn’t work in its funding. We haven’t increased the taxes on it to keep up with inflation and people are living longer now than when it was first conceived. So if it costs more and you fund it the same you will have a shortfall – simple math.

Don’t tell me to move. I am a small business owner (I do provide insurance to my employees btw), a tax payer, a veteran, and a voter. I’m not saying my plan is the one the majority wants, I am just saying it is the one that make the most sense to me.

Did I miss something, let me go back and check were I said we were attacked under obama. Aww man I can't find the post where I said that, can you show me it real quick.:smile: Other than the underwear bomber, who by dumb luck didn't succeed and depending on how you take the fort hood incident.

Then we agree, Obama is at least as good as Bush in protecting us from attack. The underwear bomber is exactly the same as the shoe bomber, both were neutralized in the same way. The Fort Hood incident “appears” to be a lone kook that was in some ways influenced by religious extremism. There were several cases like this during the Bush administration as well, so again I think they cancel out. I don’t think it is so much that either Administration has “protected” us from terrorists. There are a plethora of law enforcement organizations that are doing their job in that respect.

I don’t think Bush caused 9/11 – he just happened to be president at the time. He did though make a colossal mistake in taking us into an unjust war and taking his eye off the real prize (Al Qaida). Taking us into that war and all of the cowboy tactics used by him and his administration have destroyed all of the good will the world had for us after 9/11. When 9/11 happened, the world was behind us in condemning that heinous act of terrorism. Instead of harnessing that good will, we started a war that had nothing to do with 9/11 then granted ourselves rights to do whatever we wanted to to whoever we wanted to. That war and those tactics have created more terrorists than Al Qaida could have dreamed of building form any grass roots initiative. Unfortunately, Obama has continued down the same path by ramping up the war in Afghanistan. Why can’t we understand that every innocent civilian we kill in Afghanistan has the potential of creating 10s or 100s of terrorists? I know that if a bomb came out of the sky form an unmanned drone and killed my family, I would personally go to war on the people that caused that – that would make me a terrorist.

However I don't like obamacare either. I think there are other better methods that I've talked about ad nauseam, ad infinitum here. Stop being ignorant.

You’re right. A better method would be to asses an appropriate Medicare tax on ALL earned income and provide Basic Universal Coverage to everyone - Medicare for all. Under basic coverage everyone would have access to well doctor visits, medically necessary procedures, chronic disease coverage, and catastrophic illness protection. Everything above basic coverage could be covered under supplemental insurance that could be purchased on the open market. Why is this such a hard concept to understand?

Thats fine. I agree we shouldn't be there, I don't want to be there, I have friends and family who are, I've lost friends over there. Your not gonna get me to say go kill em all, we should be there now. If thats what you think my stance is. My point was simple. Under Bush, post 9/11 myself and my country were safe. We were not attacked on that scale or any real scale here in our country, which is all I said.

Did I miss something? Has Obama “caused” us to be attacked during his time in office? In fact, I think the data shows that under his (Obama’s) watch more high level Al Qaida and Taliban have been killed or captured at a faster rate than under the last administration.

Protected me and my country from additional terrorist attacks.

Really?

That is an incredibly myopic and ignorant view of history. The unjustified and unnecessary war in Iraq created more terrorists than any recruiting drive Al-Qaida could have conceived of. The war in Iraq also created a tremendous opportunity for Iran to become the nemesis they are today. The illegal torture techniques, Abu Ghraib, and Guantanamo (Cheney still defends these today) are all used by our enemies as a justification for everything they are doing. The ongoing doomed to failure approach in Afghanistan is doing nothing more than propping up a corrupt drug dealing dictatorship and a civil war that is of no business of ours.

Cleo`s Mom, I`ve been carping on the same subject matter on and off this blog for months. These "Patriots" might just as well slip on their KKK (sheets) or their Nazi (brown shirts) and start (goose stepping). They always bring ideological matters up as a pretense to their protest, but their under belly shrieks of racial hatred. The Democrats and Liberals are going to take away their Guns. Obama has NEVER mentioned a word about any agenda to change gun ownership law yet there has been a (run) on ammunition purchases since he came to office. Next up, their favorite, Abortion or Pro-Choice, which by the way was supposed to have been settled years ago with Roe vs Wade. Don`t want an Abortion... don`t have one! The same Old Men that refused a Women`s right to vote want to control their reproductive rights as well. Its a riot, its always a bunch of ole white corroded broken down men that suffer (erectile dysfunction) and eat Viagra and Cialis tablets like M & M`s with no positive results and still can`t get it up, want to control a women`s right to make (her) decision. Until a male can get pregnant, regardless of what side of this issue your on, its a women`s issue..period! And like I`ve stated before, look at the makeup of those that attend the Pro-Life Rally`s. Almost All White protesters. Because of a long waiting list for (white baby`s), just ask Supreme Court Justice Robert`s, these Pro-Life protesters what to assure that every white fetus is delivered to allow an opportunity to a couple that is childless and waiting patiently for their turn in line. There is not shortage of available Latino or Black babies waiting to be adopted,....go figure?

Bravo Phil, couldnt have said it better myself.

Journey,

Everyone is a little different and goals can very subjective. Some people want to fit into an old outfit, get back to pre-pregnancy weight, return to college weight, or get into a normal BMI range. My first goal was to surpass whatever I did on “regular” diets. I am a 6 foot tall male in my early 40s. My best diet weight was 205ish (I started lapband at 285). I passed that first goal fairly easily about 5 months postop and felt I was still able to lose more. I set my next goal get to a “Normal” BMI of 24.9 (which for me was 184 lbs), I made that goal about 8 months post op. Still, I thought I could lose more and felt like I still had some belly flab to deal with. I took a Hydrostatic Dunk test to determine what my actual Body Fat was relative to my total weight and decided I wanted to get under 13% Body Fat which is considered “Excellent” or “Athletic” on most charts. I passed that goal about 1 year postop (I currently have 9.7% Body Fat).

So I would say set your first goal to a healthy attainable goal and readjust as you get closer to it. Don’t believe the hype about only being able to lose a portion of your excess weight on the band. I have lost 115 lbs, which just happens to be 115% of my excess weight. If I believed that logic I would have stopped at 209lbs which would have left me with an overweight BMI of 28.3. Remember, those estimates are based on averages. Some of those people don’t follow the rules or have complications. If the band works well for you and you do your part, there is no reason to limit yourself to anything predetermined.

And don't forget....- kids staying on their parents plan till they are 26!

You just don't get it. All these things ARE wonderful. Reps want them also. WE JUST CAN'T AFFORD IT!!!! If you think it's wonderful, it's because it is wonderful get something you desire, but when the bill comes in, how are you going to pay for it? Leave it to a liberal to spend on things he just can't afford. And if you think it will reduce the deficit, you are dillusional. You can't insure 30 million more people and have it not cost anything.

Oh Patty, it’s such a tired argument “we can’t afford it”. Of course we can afford it, not only can we afford it, we can’t afford not to do it. The non-partisan CBO has already said it saves over $100B in the first 10 years and over a Trillion dollars in the next ten years. I would argue that net net we would have saved a ton more if we just gotten rid of Insurance Companies altogether and provided Medicare to all. See my post #288 here http://www.lapbandtalk.com/f80/bet-youre-sorry-you-voted-obama-now-88530/index20.html for a simple explanation of that.

Ok, so you don’t believe the CBO? Then it really comes to a matter of priorities. I believe a healthy America is a strong America and it makes us a better country than either of the two wars we are in. To date, we have spent over $700B in Iraq, a war in which we had no business starting and have no reason to continue. That war saved us zero lives and has only made us weaker on the world scene (it is single handedly the reason Iran has become so powerful). As for Afghanistan, we have spent almost $300B there. I can buy the argument that we initially had some cause to go in there and clear out Al-Qaeda but we have no business there now and it is not our place to continue the fight with the Taliban. Afghanistan is fighting a Civil War and we are doomed to failure there as long we stay.

Are you asking for a reason other than simple curiosity?

Oh, I’m just curious. The band has been wonderful for me and I am happily maintaining below goal. I am only about 13 months out though and in the back of my mind I’m always worried that it will fail at some point. I don’t know much about the sleeve, but what little I do know makes me think the transition to it from a failed band seems very plausible. I am so happy with my new body that I have no intentions of EVER letting myself get fat again, even if that means revising to the sleeve. I just hope it is never necessary for me. Good luck to you BJean on whatever path you take.

BJean,

Did you have a problem with the Band or has it stopped working for you?

And if you don't have healthcare because you simply don't need/want it, you'll be fined by the govt for not having it.

Jre1974, I am usually pretty good at following the LBT rules and addressing the issue and not attacking the person. However, whenever I see this particular argument, I just want to scream at the lunacy of such a comment.

Everyone NEEDS healthcare, it’s really that simple. We are all human and we all at one time or another will have a human malady that will need to be addressed with some sort of medical care. In most of the cases, if that person that needs care does not have insurance because they didn’t “want it” or thought they didn’t “need it” they will either go untreated, die of their ailment, or go onto some sort of public system (like walking into the ER). None of those solutions are acceptable and all cost the economy far more than Universal Health care would cost.

Unfortunately this Bill is not Universal Health Care, it is not Medicare for all, and does not have a Public Option. This is a first step in the right direction and it certainly addresses a lot of the problems with the current system. I just hope we find a way to add to it to make it better.

My Plan:

Apply an appropriate percentage of Medicare Tax on ALL income and give everyone Basic Medical coverage under a centrally administered Medicare Program. The basic plan would include well doctor visits, routine medical/dental care, medical necessities, and critical care and that’s it. Anything deemed elective or above and beyond “basic” care could be addressed with supplemental medical insurance bought on the open market. This could be done the same way our public school system works. We all pay taxes so that every child is guaranteed the right (not privilege) to attend K-12 education. If parents choose to supplement the public education, they are free to send their kids to private schools, add supplemental tutoring, enroll in out of school extracurricular activities, etc. It just seems so simple to me, but then I’m just a regular guy and not a politician.

Thou art a braggart! :laugh: (just kidding!)

That's totally cool. I would like to be where you are in about a year or two. You are truly an inspiration for me.

It's so funny to think that I have a better shot at getting a 6-pack at 41 or 42 than I did at 21.

Caffeine, it looks like we started in similar circumstances. If I can do it, you can do it. Best of luck!!!

Not exactly what I was hoping for (I wanted Single Payer or MediCare for all), but this is a great step in the right direction. The sad thing is that in the end we didn't get a single Republican to vote for it yet we inserted a lot of what they wanted in the bill. The irony is that we could have rammed a more progressive bill through six months ago still with no replublicans - so much for trying to be bipartisan.

Thanks, I am!

And I'm here to tell everyone to stick with it. With a little hard work and some help from the band your weight goals are within reach.

Good luck all!

I passed my 1 year point back on 2/18 and everything is going great!!! Blew past my weight goal, trounced my BMI goal, and knocked my Body Fat Percentage goal outta the park.

I couldn’t be happier!!! Before surgery I had set my goal to 184 lbs which would have put me just into the “Normal” range on the BMI scale. Honestly, at that time I would have been happy to get down to 200 because I had never been able to do that in my dieting life. I hit that first goal back in October (8 months post-op). I was still comfortably losing at that point so I shifted my goal from weight/BMI to Body Fat Percentage. At that time, my Body Fat was about 17% which is pretty good for a 43 male, but I wanted to do better. I set my new goal to get under 13% BF which is considered “Excellent” on most BF charts. Yesterday I had my most recent Hydrostatic Dunk Test (this is the most accurate way to measure BF) and I was shocked and amazed to see that I was at 9.7% BF!!! My weight is down to 170.6 lbs, which is almost 115 lbs from where I started. That is freaking unbelievable.

If you were to see me now and not have known the fat me, you would never know that I was overweight. I look very thin, not sickly thin mind you, more like a runners body, somewhat muscular but not chiseled (yet). I actually care about looking good in clothes now. I love all the compliments I get. I am so motivated by my success and actually enjoy the food choices I make, I take pleasure in going to the gym now. I still have some mental issues to deal with. I occasionally still see that fat guy in the mirror. In reality he is not in the mirror, he is only in my head and his image is fading fast.

For those of you that are early in the journey, take it from me – it CAN work. You have to follow some rules and it’s not always easy, but it CAN work.