KartMan

I do not agree with you that we were a Christian Nation. I will grant you that there were (and are) a lot of Christian Politicians, but that is not the same thing. To say we were a Christian Nation would imply that it was our state sponsored religion. The Islamic Republic of Iran is a Moslem country, Israel is a Jewish country, we are not a Christian country because we have chosen not to pick a specific religion as our state religion. It is certainly ok for you to WANT to make God a part of our government, this is a democracy so you can try. But you can’t just want it, for it to happen you need to change the politicians, the laws, and the minds of a lot of people. I take comfort in knowing that even most religious people don’t want that so good luck in that effort.

Sorry, I may have misunderstood you. I get confused by your direction when you say we have free will and that God knows the outcome of everything. Those two ideas seem mutually exclusive to me. I see that is not what you were saying this time, but you say it so much that I guess I just read it that way. As for the rest of your statement, I would just correct you and say that YOU are accountable to God. Since I don’t believe as you do, I am accountable to own belief system.

How does teaching religion change any of that? Don’t make me go find statistics of teen pregnancy, drug use, cheating, stealing, etc. in religious private schools. You and both know that it will be there and it will be in comparable numbers to non-religious private schools. I would expect it to be a little less than public schools only because the private schools have the ability to throw the kids out where the public system can’t quite do that. The point is that the teaching of religion (or not teaching it) has little to do with the morality of the kids.

In that case I would vote for it all to be removed. I think unless you can represent all religions (and there is no way you could) then you shouldn’t give any of them preferential treatment or additional recognition. I actually think removing every reference to God in public life is a little extreme, and am not advocating that at all. There is a historical context to it being on our money, the swearing in of office, etc. None of those however makes us a “Christian Country” though and certainly should not open the door to more religious policy or recognition. We are a secular democracy and should stay that way.

Now you are contradicting yourself, you said we have free will. That is free will to do good or bad. Parents need to teach their kids to be good and schools have to ensure that students follow the rules, its just that simple. I don’t see how God plays into the equation at all.

Oh come on now, who said you can’t bring a bible to school? I can see the school stopping you from creating a “Christian Club” or trying to organize group prayers or the like but I have never heard of them stopping and individual from expressing their religion. I’ve seen kids at our school wearing crosses, Jesus bracelets, and religious t-shirts, to my knowledge nobody has ever tried to stop them. I can’t see why you would want to bring a bible though. My middle schooler already has 50 pounds of textbooks and a violin to lug around every day, the last thing he needs is another book in his bag.

I couldn’t agree more. Whoever said that religions or people of faith had the market cornered on morality? We all know the difference between right and wrong and we can choose to go either way. I tend to believe that most people make the right choice most of the time, not because they are afraid of what God thinks, but because the are basically good people. Plenty of “good” people have done bad things and there are some “bad” folks out there that have surprised us and done good things. As far as ethics and morality goes, religion is just teaching you what you should have learned in kindergarten or at least from your parents.

Kinda glad this thread slowed down a bit. Between this one and the Morality thread I was getting exhausted. BTW, I haven’t tried a bikini ON either:lol:, but I did put on some size 36 pants this week and they fit pretty well. At this rate I think I will be in size 34 well before summer ends. Are you freaking kidding me? I haven’t seen size 34 since about 1990:thumbup:.

Well, yeah I kinda think you are. Because you would like the tenants of your religion to be taught in public schools and you would like the government to pass laws that are based on your religious principals. I don’t know if you are one of the people that wake me up on Saturday morning so that I may hear the word of God. I hope not, because those folks really irritate me.

I am not “trying” to find a reason NOT to believe in God, but I have not found a reason TO believe in God. To me it sounds like a bunch of rewritten myths, hocus pocus, fairy tales, etc.. I have many friends and family that are religious and many of them find great peace in it. I do appreciate religion for that. I do however take exception to anyone that tries to push their religion on others or make society bend to the rules of their particular religion.

Uh, no. I wouldn't have to admit that. There certainly was crime, was it less or more - I'm not sure but I am certain it was not "FAR less". The Wild West was in the 1800's and we know that crime was rampant then (and they used the death penalty without much hesitation). The days of the pirates would have been in the 1700's and we know the high seas were very unsavory, and again the death penalty was in play, didn’t seem to make a difference.

Lydia, I need to take a moment to commend you on your thoughts on where this topic is heading. There is absolutely no way a sane or caring person can condone rape. No matter what the context was at the time or even if you were to believe that somehow it was for the greater good. If those women were taken from their lands and forced to marry the conquers (which mean they would have had sexual relations with them) and they did not want it, they were raped – there is no other way to look at it. Rape is rape, and it is nothing short of horrific.

I’m not a woman so I realize I’m on shaky ground here but I think I would rather be allowed to choose prostitution than to be forced into rape and marriage form the man that just killed my husband/father/brother. To me, it sounds as if you are justifying rape in each one of your answers. Frankly, I don’t see how any woman could do that no matter what the circumstances, but that’s just me.

Since a school is a public institution, as soon as a particular religion’s prayer is sponsored in school, that religion just became the official government sponsored religion. Just how would you propose which one is the right one to choose? How would you feel if the choice was not your religion of preference? How is teaching about God not teaching about religion? Which God would you have them teach about? Creationism is purely in the realm of religion and has no basis in science, as such it is totally inappropriate to teach in public school science classes. Again, the creationism you speak of is specific to only a few religions, if it is taught in public schools that would mean that the government is embracing a particular religion, that is simply not acceptable in a secular democracy.

Well that’s not fair. You said that type of language wasn’t there to your recollection, I just refreshed your memory that not only is it there, it is in numerous passages. In fact, what I posted was only a fraction of what I found in about 5 minutes. Now don’t get me wrong, I certainly don’t think you or most other Christians today believe that that language is acceptable. I do though take issue with people like Patty saying that “everything” in the Bible is good and wonderful or folks like you that choose to pretend the bad things aren't there, neither of those seem very right or ok to me.

Thanks. It was a great time. I learned so much about myself and people in general. I went in at 18 and it really shaped the rest of my life. Here is a story that is a bit of a tangent for this topic, but I think relative to the thinkers on this thread. I was on a pretty small ship, less than 300 men (combat ships were not coed at the time). We had 2 guys on there that were as about as openly gay as you could be without actually coming out. One of them was a crew favorite, the other not so much. They were liked and disliked by the crew for many different reasons, but none of those reasons had to do with their sexual preference. I don’t know how many of you have been on a Navy ship, but there is not a lot of privacy. I can honestly say that I don’t think their sexual preference affected crew moral at all. This was almost 20 years ago and it didn’t affect crew moral then and I can’t for the life of me see why people that have never even served in the military think that openly gay people can’t serve in the armed forces today. I was and am totally straight and I think if either of them was kicked out for their sexual preference it would have been a huge disservice to our country.

Here are a few: - Numbers 31 states that at the Lord’s command, Moses told his soldiers to attack the Midianites. In carrying out that order, the Israelite army killed the Midianite men, plundered the animals and other property, took captive the women and children, and burned the cities. When Moses met the returning soldiers, he was angry that they had spared the women. Then he told them to “kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.” Telling soldiers to “keep alive for yourselves” virgin females captured in war could not carry stronger connotations of rape and other sexual abuse. That’s particularly true after the same brutes had just mercilessly killed the rest of the Midianites, including women, children, and the elderly. - Deuteronomy 21:10-14 states that if an Israelite soldier sees a beautiful woman among the captives taken in war, he can bring her home and require her to be his wife. After the woman has mourned her father and mother a month, the soldier can have sex with her. - John 5:45-47 Jesus criticized the Jews for not believing Moses. He told them: “Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father: it is Moses who accuses you. . . . If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote of me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?” - Isaiah 13:16 states that on the Day of the Lord, his punishment of Babylon will include: “Their infants will be dashed in pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered and their wives ravished.” - Isaiah 3:17 says “the Lord will smite with a scab the heads of the daughters of Zion, and the Lord will lay bare their secret parts.”

Rodriguez, I spent 6 years in uniform and would never disparage the troops in general, for the most part they are just following orders. I think there are and were some bad apples, there always are in war. My beef is with the administration that put them there and the command structure that allowed the atrocities in Abu Ghraib, the killing and raping of the young girl and her family, and the like.

I grew up around some pretty unsavory folks. Some of them went on to commit murder. I happen to know that they were not deterred from their crimes by the threat of Capital Punishment. They don’t even believe they will be caught, let alone put to death, so it’s not a deterrent at all. Besides, it is just flat out wrong for society to kill its citizens. Rehabilitate them, or lock them in a cell for life, but don’t perpetuate the injustice by taking their life in vengeance. If for no other reason, our courts get it wrong far too often. It seems that almost every week they are finding some poor sap on death row that was completely innocent. If we put to death even one person by mistake, then that is one too many.

How was the “killing” we did in Iraq self defense? It was known at the time of the invasion and has been proven outright since then that Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11. So if we were not defending ourselves and we killed thousands of Iraqis how is not murder?

I can’t put her on ignore. She has opinions that are shared by others and there are still others that may be swayed by what she has to say. I personally feel obliged to challenge her on these issues because I find them to be wrong on so many levels. I think it would be a tragedy if Patty saying what she says convinces even one person that taking away a woman’s right to choose, further discriminating against gays, or forcing religion into schools is ok.

At the risk of sounding sexist, I think being a guy helps. We seem to be a little luckier in the weight department than you ladies. It tends to be focused in our guts and seems to come off easier when we start to work on it. I’m sure not having that monthly visitor helps us a little too:wink:.

Luckily I have never had to deal with the issue of abortion directly or even with a close family member in that situation. Even though I haven’t been there, I know the last thing a woman needs is people screaming at her that she is a murderer. I am so committed to the belief that it is a deeply personal thing and that no other person (or the government) has a right to interfere with it. I do think that were on the edge of danger a few years ago of leaning too far to the right and that fundamentalism was gaining too much ground. But I think we have finally turned the corner and are heading in the right direction. It is not won yet though and we have to keep making sure the truth is heard lest the voices like Patty’s and the rest gain a foothold again. It is especially true in difficult economic times like these that we have to be vigilant. Extremism tends to breed when times are tough. Bjean, keep up the good fight and know that you are right.

Bjean, you are so well spoken. I really appreciate reading your posts.

Patty, I want to apologize for the tone of my last comment. First let me say that I am extremely skeptical of religion and faith, not just yours but all of them so my criticism is aimed at all of them not just yours. Second I will do everything in my power to make the point that religion should be a personal thing and has absolutely no place in public policy. Having said that, I totally respect the fact that you believe in what you believe in. Just as much as I will fervently fight to keep yours and any religion out of our government, I would fight and die for your absolute right to believe as you do. The last thing I want to do is ridicule someone for their beliefs. Just because I do not believe what you believe I have no right to make fun of it, I’m sorry if it came across that I way. I will continue to debate you on what our government should and should not do, issues of morality, and even the merits and nuances of religion and faith (and I’m sure these debates will be spirited). I will however try my best to draw the line at making insensitive comments about your personal beliefs. Kartman