StrawartS

I just want to reiterate my point about the differnces between the two systems. There is a need for a criminal and civil system because the two different systems are intended to protect different parties. In a criminal system, the defendant is being punished for harming SOCIETY in general, not the victim. That is why, although a victim and her family are allowed to testify in the punishment phase of a trial, the trier of fact is not supposed to give much weight to that testimony. A criminal trial is between a defendant and the state.

The civil system is the victim's chance for retribution. The discrepancy has come up in the OJ case because a defedant worth suing in a civil system is very rare. Defendants are often insolvent.

As an aside, sometimes a victim is entitled to NO compensation - like when the victim is injured by the state. If the state screws you over, you can't sue them unless they give you permission to sue them (this is called sovereign immunity).

In regard to intent, it has nothing to do with guilt or innocence, and throwing around those legal terms without regard to their legal meaning complicates this discussion. To be found guilty in a criminal court, you did not have to intend your crime (the specific crime that occurred). In regard to murder, the following two forms of murder require no intent to kill -

1. Depraved heart murder - an unintentional killing that results from a defendant's extremely negligent conduct (for example, firing a gun into a crowded room or throwing a heavy object from a rooftop onto a busy street)

2. Involuntary manslaughter - an unintentional killing that results from a defendant's gross negligence (negligence that is less than extreme negligence, but more than tort negligence) (for example, firing a gun into a room that appears empty or throwing a heavy object off a rooftop in a residential area)

In addition, felony murder results when a defendant accidentally killed someone during the commission of another felony. For example, if a gun accidentally discharges during a bank robbery, that killing is elevated to murder status because it occurred during a felony, even though the defendant did not intent to kill anyone.

The American justice system is split up into two categories -

1. Offenses against the state - crimes

2. Offenses against the person - torts

The purpose of the criminal justice system is NOT to compensate victims, it is to punish the convicted person for his crime against the state. The civil justice system IS intended for victim compensation.

Sometimes there is overlap between civil and criminal offenses, such as when someone dies. Other times, a civil offense is NOT criminally punishable, like a breach of contract (which is why we no longer have debtors' prisons).

A civil and criminal court may come to different conclusions regarding the same event because of the different rules of procedure and evidence involved in the two trials. Everyone has heard of the two different standards imposed in the two different courts. In a criminal trial, the defendant must be proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt because we do not want to send someone to prison or death row based on "probably" evidence. In a civil trial, the standard is that the defendant is liable by a preponderance of the evidence - more likely than not. 100% certainty is not as important when we're just talking money vs. someone's life.

*still sulking, now crying and sucking thumb*

What, I don't get a shout-out? What's up with that, Lisa? *sulks in corner*

Oh, another thing. I shouldn't have bumped this thread if my real intentions were so pure. But my opinion was SO IMPORTANT that it had to be added to the mix. Human nature is a funny thing.

Since I've recently started posting again, I've tried to read everyone's posts with the understanding that you all have the best intentions and mean no malice. I hope you will take my comments likewise.

Funny, you say that you are trying to calm people down with the cheesiness. Speaking as someone who gets highly emotional at times, the worst thing to say to someone who has gotten momentarily offtrack is "Calm down."

The rest of you cheese-mongerers also say that you are trying to kill threads with your talk of such gastronomic delights. But the only way to really kill a thread is to stop posting on it. When you post, regardless of your post's dairy content, some member who just logged on will read the thread from the start and become involved in the less comical side of the debate.

I've never been a silly person; I'm more into dark humor...so I might not be as understanding toward off-topic cheesiness. I just wanted to offer the perspective of someone who's been quietly watching for the last few months.

I would really encourage you to ask them. In my opinion, and limited experience, the things people think about RNY patients are based on the GB that was done fifteen or more years ago.

Also, unless these people started out at very high weights, losing noticeable weight in 3 months is also not common to the LB. You'll see people on here going months post-op without losing ANYTHING or even gaining.

I know I'm sounding like a debbie downer, but I don't want to give the LB any credit where it isn't due. Maybe if you open up with your friends about your own thoughts on having the LB, you can find out how they really lost the weight.

But I've seen some people in my community who have done it and I've seen them blossom and appear happier than ever. (They don't admit to the surgery, but clues they've dropped make it pretty obvious.)

Are you sure it was the LB? If you know people who are losing quickly enough for you to notice, I would assume it was the RNY. JMO.

Dody, it's on the right hand side of the screen, next to the post #. Right above your join date, # of posts you've made, and age.

I was self-pay and if I had another $8,000 handy I'd use it to get this thing out. I never go on the "Would you do it again?" Type threads because I really don't want to bring anyone down.

Kare, I could KISS you! Every time I see those threads I cringe. I can't tell you how comforting it is to know that I am not the only anti-bander.

String cheese! I always carry string cheese with me - as soon as I get hungry, I eat one, and the hunger pains totally go away. I eat a lot of ground chicken, too. Sandwich meats sliced very thin go down well for me - ham, salami, etc.

I have no comment on the straws. But every time I see this thread, I think you're talking to me.

Gayle,

Without naming names, I also know several people (300 - 500 lb. range) who are not losing with the band like other high BMI-ers you might see who are more successful. There are, of course, exceptions to every generalization.

That being said, I agree that lightweights have a harder time, but only because the caloric differences between our start and goal weights are so slight. For example, to maintain my body at 195 lbs., with my very limited physical activity, I need to consume 2,444 calories a day. To maintain at my current weight, 168, I need to consume 2,234 calories a day. It's very easy for me to fluctuate between those two numbers and lose and gain back several pounds every other day.

For someone who weighs 350 lbs, the caloric maintenance level is 3,651. Compare that to the 2,200 or so to get to my current weight. And these numbers are still high for a bandster. So when someone who weighs 350 lbs. goes from eating nearly 4,000 calories a day to around 1,000 post op, yeah, the weight IS going to fall off.

To speak to your other point...I would tend to agree that lightweights might be less motivated to deal with the unpleasant side effects of the band. My weight didn't interfere with my mobility or my social or professional life. My tolerance for discomfort just to lose another 25 lbs. is very low. If I needed to lose 200 lbs., I might feel differently about PB pain.

I know we're talking semantics here, but I prefer to talk about the side effects that we are willing to tolerate rather than who "works harder" or "gives up" more easily. That discrepancy in word choice doesn't reflect on you or what I know is a sincere hypothesis, it's just me trying to make myself feel better.

All that being said, I would like to mention one more band mis-truth, at least as told to me by my surgeon. I was told that the band is so great because it is adjustable for life. If I ever start to regain, I can just go and get another fill. That is simply not true. And not because I'm a whiny little bitch and can't deal with a PB, but because there is a point at which a certain amount of fill will shut you off completely. Anyway, that rant is off-topic, but I wanted to clear that point up. I personally thought that you can just keep filling the band up to lose weight forever, but it's just not like that.

I forgot what we were supposed to be talking about.

No, I'm not going to revise, because the more surgical procedures I have, the more I realize that doctors really know very litte. We are all guinea pigs. And now I personally assume that all these procedures fail after their shelf life.

BJean, sorry to scare you. I'm pessimistic by nature, so take all my ramblings with a grain of salt.

The calorie thing doesn't bother me. I have always known that I will not lose weight unless I eat around 800 calories a day. I only wanted to lose 50-60 lbs. anyway, so the difference in the calories needed to maintain my heavier body vs. my ideal weight body is not that drastic.

I wish someone would have told me that the lapband takes effort. I understood that it just makes you eat less and that you lose weight without thinking about it. I have fought for every pound, either by throwing up and being in pain, or starving because it was just too painful to try to eat. I also refuse to exercise; I never have, never will. If I had been told that I had to pay fifteen grand to lose 25 lbs., I would have looked at another surgery - probably the VG.

I wish that I would have seen this chart before I got banded.

http://www.lapsf.com/weight-loss-surgeries.html

Pete, just to clarify - speaking for myself, I am not giving up because I cannot "obey orders." I am just inable to tolerate the particular way in which the lapband restricts food consumption. To be tight enough to continue to lose weight, I would have to be miserable and in constant pain all the time. That is not worth it to me to lose another 25 pounds.

A PB is a productive burp, which is a really inaccurate term. It's when the stoma gets blocked up or irritated and sealed shut so that food builds up in the pouch. When enough food has filled the pouch to reach the base of your esophagus, it causes excrutiating pain and the only way to relieve the pain is to throw up, expell the built-up food, saliva, Water, etc. and wait for the stoma to clear out again. That's my experience anyway.

I was thinking of the personal ads...they post stuff like "I'm just looking for someone to make out with." Or replace "make out" with something a little more saucy.

The naughty stuff on there is more fun than "free mattress and box spring." Expand your horizons, nana.

Paula, you would make a GREAT nurse! There's a nursing program in Lake Charles at McNeese State. It's a six-semester program, or 72 hours. This is the website:

http://www.mcneese.edu/colleges/nursing/

There is such a nursing shortage right now! My mom is an RN and owns several hospice and home health agencies, and her colleagues have brought over nurses from the Philippines to cover the shortage. You will always have a job!

I am in the same boat, Mary! It's so good to hear something negative about the band for once. For me, it got me down 25 lbs., half of what I wanted to lose, so I AM the statistics.

I *could* go for another fill and lose another 25 lbs., but I am tired of being in constant pain over another pb, fear of putting food in my mouth, the inability to even drink in the morning, and the occassional tightening up to completely shut so that I have to spit into a cup for four hours.

My last fill wore off after about 3 months, so now I can eat anything I want with little restriction. I do still get full quickly, but now my full signal is very bad shoulder pain, not stomach fullness. I am so disappointed with this surgery, and because of my own experiences, I have a hard time understanding why people are so happy with it.

Sorry to steal your thunder, but your post really spoke to me. I'm not doing anything to lose weight now, I'm just maintaining. Check in and let us know how the nutrisystem, Soup, etc. goes. And thanks for posting. It really makes me feel less insane to know that at least one other person has had a less than successful band experience.

A palindrome is a word that is spelled the same forward and backward. Like Strawarts. Or Hannah. Or "Madam, I'm Adam."

1. Traveled to Australia, New Zealand, Mainland China (including Tibet and Hong Kong SAR), United Kingdom, Spain, France, Germany, Netherlands, Italy, Greece, Switzerland, Brussels, Romania, and various locales throughout North and Central America (that's straight off my real resume...I couldn't think of anything else interesting to put on it).

2. Baked a five-hour chocolate cake that I saw made on the food network - and it turned out great!

3. Made the Law Review at my law school (a huge deal for law students).

4. Got a fancy new car and then talked shit to anyone who would listen about some random asshole keying it, only to find out that the real culprit was....my garage door.

5. Also according to my real resume, I can speak Romanian and French (please don't call me on it).

Missed you, DeCarla. Glad you're back.

I take a Senna every other day. I just don't eat enough now to get comfortable BMs on my own.

I've had several PBs where the irritation just caused me to swell shut. I ended up spitting into a cup for several hours because the pain was so bad. If you can still get down Water, you sound manageable to me. I would sip on hot hot hot liquids all day to loosen up. Maybe stick to Soups.

I'm going to get myself in trouble again if I tell you to take advil. The rules police are sure to show up soon and tell you why you shouldn't be taking it. For me, taking advil for a headache is fine, but if I'm swollen that tight, a pill isn't going to go down unless it's liquid, so it might just be impractical for you to try to take any kind of pill.

So, to sum up, drink hot liquids, and be ready to have someone scare the pants off of you about taking advil. Hope you feel better soon.