TommyO

A number of posts ago it was sugested that the term Liberal and the terms communism and socialist were interchangeable. Communism and a socialism are economic systems not political philosophies so it is quite possible to be a conservative communist. Democracy is a type of political system as is a dictatorship. So it is also possible to live in a Liberal, socialist democracy, many Americans would view Canada as such. Also when someone states that there has never been a succesfull example of socialism or communism you are mistaken. China is very succesful and considerred to be a society based on a communist system. I am certain that many will say that China is not a true communist country and my response is that the many would also argue that the United States is not a true democracy only proving that it is impossble to find a true anything. So stop saying that socialists and liberals are the same thing. I am a Liberal and a socialist who believes in democracy.

There are references to floods everyweek in our newspapers, this is in no way an indication of a global flood. If you then consider that the people who made those old refferences to which you refer may have viewed the world as a much smaller place than we now know it to be, it is not hard to imagine how the scribes of their day may have created stories based on a common geological occurrance. The fertile delta, the place that is considerred the birthplace of homo sapien, is fertile because the Nile river floods and leaves behind silt making the ground highly suitable for growing crops. It is not very hard to understand why floods would be a common thread in the folklore of early man. To say that 2 Timothy 3:16, "All Scripture is God-breathed" Indicates that it was written by God seems like a stretch to me. I could interpret the word "Breathed" in a number of different ways, you will say that it is obvious but you are not willing to admitt that it is your biase that makes it obvious for you. TommyO

When my kids were very young I would at times answer some of there more complicated questions with less than complicated answers because I new that their young minds could not comprehend the real answer. Parents often do this so as not to confuse their children. Is it not possble that God in an attempt to answer very complicated questions created simple answers for a simple audience. So 6000 years ago when asked about how the world was created he told a story about how in 7 days he created days and everyone said okay, makes sense to me. Then maybe he thought, I know it's silly but someday they'll figure it out and that's why he gave us brains.

Speaking of door to door Christians What do you get when you cross a Jehova's Witness with a memeber of the Hells Angels Someone who knocks on your door and when you answer they tell you to F___ Off

I am a Beer or Wine Guy, not much in for the whole shooter thing but I love the beach. As a matter of fact in just over a week I will be parking my ass (I would say big fat ass but the truth is from the waist down I'm pretty taut) on the beach at Anna Maria Florida. So no S'mores for me but a big yes to any cold beers or a glass or ten of a big bold Cab with lots of tanins and earthyness with the taste of black current, bell peppers and a hit of vanila. If I'm invited that is!!

Good morning everyone, this thread really took off again the last few days and it has been hard to keep up. From what I can gather it appears that Ron came undone last night and started calling everyone names again. Ron I realize your emotions can get the best of you but you start to appear quite childish when you stop discussing and start name calling. From what I can tell and please correct me if I am wrong, you hate Muslims, Catholics and Gays, you don't hate Jews as long as they are completed Jews and this is all acceptable behaviour. At least the Bible says it's acceptable and if we weren't such idiots we would know this. If after 30 years of studying the bible that is what you have learned I think you need to head over to the library and pick out a new book to read. Check out Dr. Seus!!

After 30 years all you can come up with is "It's literal when taken in context" a bit of a slow learner, thank goodness you weren't studying biology. T_O_M when you wrote "A man is best judged by his enemies" I got it TommyO

Bush is a good man. There was a flood and Noah was able to build an ark and gather up the animals in pairs and load them on the ark The world was created in 7 days, even without the sun being created for 3 of those days. The Bible is literal I would like to give you some more of my beliefs but my cow just flew out the window and I urgently need to go and get her. Time for me to mooooove on Cheers TommyO

It is obvious that what I have had to say is not being received here, and my time is very limited. Therefore, I am not going to spend nearly as much time posting here as I have previously. I am not leaving the board and will be reading the posts, I am just not going to continue this endless debate with some who are so close minded to the truth. I feel like I have been trying to describe the sunset ot a blind man. No matter what, the blind man just can't see. Not wanting to see is another matter. I have allowed myself to become fustrated by a few who are outright hypocrits and offer nothing by endless opinion unsubstanciated except by only their own ego's. I have also read some great, sincere discussions by some who had real great ideas and are willing to consider ideas with an open mind and heart. As I said, I will still be around, will occasionally jump in with a post or two, but I am going to stop beating this dead horse and I need to put my time to better use. I am too busy to write this myself so I thought I would just copy and paste Ron's post and make a few changes. It would appear that it works from my perspective as well all though I am directing it back in the other direction. TommyO

From Genesis The Fourth Day 1:14 God said, 'There shall be lights in the heavenly sky to divide between day and night. They shall serve as omens [and define] festivals, days and years. 1:15 They shall be lights in the heavenly sky, to shine on the earth.' It happened. 1:16 God [thus] made the two large lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the smaller light to rule the night. [He also made] the stars. 1:17 God placed them in the heavenly sky to shine on the earth, 1:18 to rule by day and by night, and to divide between the light and the darkness. God saw that it was good. 1:19 It was evening and it was morning, a fourth day. I am always curious how Days 1 - 3 happened with out a sun. Did God not know that the sun was the reason for the light? There are many passages in the bible when taken literally make it impossible to believe. I believe that those who take the bible as a literal document often do so because they need to. I can think of two reasons that this would happen: 1. Because they tend to be black and white thinkers and are afraid of the grey, uncertainty can be very unerving for black and white thinkers. 2. Because they need to know that they will get to heaven, they are afraid of death but because they have done bad things in the past that would exclude them and it is important that they can prove that they have a chance. That is why they are okay with Carlene's grand Daughter's freind going to hell because it's allows them access. By way of example, a murderer becomes saved and turns His/Her life over to Jesus. In their hearts they are always concerned that they will go to hell no matter what changes they make. But the bible tells them this is not so and they will get to heaven. It is important that the bible be a literal document or there is always lingering doubt. So even if it means a 14 year old child goes to hell for no sane reason, as long as they get into heaven it's worth it. I have met many "Born Again" Christians, many of them were good people who had decided to turn their lives over to God. Many others however were bad people who had become reformed and they often were the most unbending in their interpretation of scripture. As matter of fact most of them were often all or nothing people, one day they were dealing drugs and the next day they were wittnessing for the lord. Either way when you didn't buy their Drugs or their religion they became very upset. Finally I think Bjean mentioned how odd the word proof appears and I agree but it is also one of my favorite words. Most people understand it to mean "to verify" but Proof also means to test as in "100 proof Vodka" or "proof read". With that in mind the word prove also has both meanings and because most people no longer use the word proof in the test context any more, a very important saying in todays society is still used but incorrectly. The saying --- "It's the exception that proves the rule" somehow people think that this saying verifys a rule even when an exception is found. It is actually better wriiten " It's the exception that Proofs the rule" meaning the exception tests the rule. Rules have a purpose but sometimes they may not apply, it is at these times we are required to think for ourselves and formulate our own opinions. Once again the black and white thinkers are not good at this as they prefer to go by the rule book no matter how wrong it may be. It would seem that it is easy to misinterpret anything and I guess that is why we have judges for our societal rule book Cheers to all, you could say that in this thread we prove nothing and everything at the same time TommyO

You do not get to decide what people debate on this or any other forum. If you choose to express your opinion be prepared for a rebutle. You have added no value, you jump in tell everyone they disgust you and then run off. Ta Ta

You cannot speak for others, you speak for yourself. Speaking for others would imply that you had some ability to read the minds of others. You can pretend that you are speaking on behalf of others but it is best to be honest and admit that you are expressing your opinion. So when you say that we digust you I should be able to disaprove of that statement and return the volly in kind. Here is something to think about, when you decide to speak ill of people at least have the courage to take ownership of you statements. I speak for no one but myself

It's great you were able to find support elsewhere, I can understand how people expressing their opinions would disgust you. It is often easier to never challenge your beliefs and participating in a forum such as this requires a thick skin at times and some depth of character. Ta Ta

Carlene, I have always liked your God, along with the Gods of a number of the other folks who have participated in this thread. This thread has reminded me of how good many Christians really are. In the past I often found people who claim to be religious to be very close minded right wing conservatives who seemed to me to be filled with hate and not the Holy Spirit. On this thread I have been pleased to have been proven wrong in many of my assumptions. I have been reminded that there are a lot of good Christians out there who very much deserve my respect and admiration. A long time ago before I was married I had a knock on my door and when I answerred it I met a couple of Jehovas Witnesses, I invited them in and we had a grand discussion. As we spoke I told them how much I admirred their conviction. The thought that they were able to go out and knock on doors in an attempt to save people from eternal dammnation impressed me. There are very few people in this world who have that level of commitment. I also told them that I had three Aunts who were Nuns and they too had the same commitment to their faith. I then said that the thing that sadens me is that if I am to believe either side I must come to terms with the fact Someone was burning in hell and that both groups, based on their beliefs could not possibly end up in heaven. As an individual who was raised Catholic I coud never come to terms with the idea that there was one true religion. That is likely the main reason I decided that God does not truly exist. For my God to exist He/She would be required to be much smarter than that. So I like your God and I like T_O_M's God and I like some of the other Gods I have been introduced to on this thread, I am not ready to believe in them at this point but I can and do live by most, if not all of what they stand for. I also like the name Tommy, all my life the people who have been closest to me have called me Tommy, at 47 I may now be a little old for such a youthfull moniker but when I meet and old freind and they address me as Tommy I feel young again. Thomas is a great name ( My Mother had great forsight naming me after Doubting Thomas) but Tommy is reserved for the closest people in a Tom's lfe like old best friends and Mom's Cheers TommyO

In an earlier post I mentioned that even though it is ascerted that God made man in his own image I believed that the opposite is true, Man creates God in his image. I don't want to offend anyone but I think that this is an interesting concept especially if you apply it on an individual basis. For every person who believes in God there is a seperate God who really is the mirror image of them, except this God is an omnipotant version of themselves. When you define your God you are defining yourself, or at least your supreme self. This supreme self may not be perfect to the world but a representation of your vision of who, what and how a supreme being might look, act and behave. When someone describes their vision of God I believe they are telling me much more about who they are or who they would aspire to be. If your God is a more kind and gentle God there is a good chance you are as well Individuals who are very black and white tend to view God as a rule maker. The more conservative or Liberal the person the more conservative or liberal their God. Even those who are Athiests who choose to not believe in God as I do tell agreat deal about who they are when they explain their rational for not believing. So tell me about your God!! P.S. Refering to me as TOM or refering to T_O_M as Tommy does not offend me at all, as they say "You can call me TOM or you can call me Tommy, just don't call me late to dinner" P.S.S. I don't believe in God but if I did he would have a great sense of humour

Ron, I must agree with Carlene in the sentence you refer it in no way to says or implies what you are suggesting. You are taking a big leap here claiming that the Catholic church say's one thing when they quite obviously do not. Once again you make a statement that seems absolute but in reality your interpretation of the words are incorrect. You seem to have the ability to intepret these words in a biased manner for the purpose of backing up your position. It would appear that you are able to let your biases interfere with your objectivity. I can't help but wonder how this has affected your ability to intepret other writings.

I find it interesting that the links provided as proof of a flood mention the use of carbon dating as evidence but when the carbon dating isn't consistant with the suggested dates of the flood carbon dating is then refuted as unrelaible. Seems to me these folks also seem to talk out of both sides of their mouths. Let me see if I have this straight. There was a flood and carbon dating proves this. Carbon Dating places the flood much earlier than 4003 years ago. Carbon dating is wrong. There was a flood and it took place 4003 years ago. The Bible is literal and it's words come from God. God is omnipotant The Bible says the world is a circle. The world is actually a sphere The omnipotant God doesn't know the difference between circles and spheres. Circle, Sphere, who cares, at least he didn't say Square, I take the bible literally, just not so much when it applies to Geometry.

Once again the ugly face of prejudice and intolerance rears it's ugly head. Talk in cricles all you want you still continue to convince me that you are a very intolerant person. I know it's not you it's the bible, that book that inteprets itself but only to you. Could all the Catholics please refrain from practising their beliefs and all the Gay folks be happy with your deminished status. Like I said if that's heaven I prefer Hell, see you there

Ron, you are talking in circles and it's becoming more and more evident as we move along. You continue to use the bible to justify your stand on homosexuality, you then say the laws of the land (Our society is based on Judeo Christian principles) agree with that position and should be followed when the bible is not explicit enough. Then when the laws do not meet your need you insist that one is only required to follow the teachings of the bible. When someone introduces a verse from the old testament that disproves your argument you talk of the new testament as the new Covenant and as such it overides the old testament. However when there is nothing in the new testament that backs your argument you decide that the old testament is correct and should be followed. When other Christians disagree with your interpretation of the Bible you tell them they are bad Christians because you know the truth and they do not. You stated that the bible interprets itself and that in itself would imply that it is impossible to intepret it any other way. Yet people continue to disagree on the intent of scripture. I can't help but think that these topics may not be as clear as you think and that possibly you have spent most of your efforts verifying your beleifs and not putting them to the test. Sometimes when we discuss topics individually we miss the contradictions so, for example if in January someone questions a topic and we provide an answer we fail to notice that in March the solution we give to another issue is contradicting our solution in January but it doesn't matter because we have forgotten the previous solution. I could go through the over 100 pages of this thread and give you specific examples but I do not have the time or energy. Even if I did the only thing that would happen is a debate would begin around the intent of the statements, so It's safe to say that this thread does not intepret itself. It amazes me that even in a discussion such as this thread individuals misinterpret each others posts but you continue to insist that it is impossible for you to misinterpret the scriptures. Might I remind you that many thousands, likely millions of Christians disagree with your interpretation. How come only you have this power?

In my humble uneducated opinion, food issues and weight issues are either genetic or happen to people for far greater reasons than Grandpa not letting the grand kids eat a sundae. Don't sweat the small stuff, Kids need to be loved and they know when they are but it has little to do with Sundaes and eggs. You are a good Grandpa because you are involved in your grandchilds life in a positive fashion. We all make arbitrary rules then we use rational that seems to justify these rules, at least to ourselves. Whether your decision to not let the kid eat the sundae was right or wrong we will never know but I can tell you with certainty that your decision to take her with you to lunch and your attempt at teaching her a life lesson showed her you love her and she knows that. So you are a good Grandpa

I do not beleive in God because I don't feel a need, that may make little sense but, to me, it is the only way I can explain my beliefs. I don't care if evolution or creationism is the answer, It makes no difference to me. I sat with a gentleman once and discussed his devout Christianity one day, I asked him what was it that made him become a Christian and he kept referring to something that was missing being found, like a peice of a puzzle. Repeatedly he would say "You know that sense that something is missing" and I kept answering him with "No I do not". At first he thought I was mocking him but he began to realize that I was in ernest. From that day forward I began to realize that I do not have a similar sense about the world and it's origins as many other people. I am not looking for answers or for that matter I have no questions about the meaning of life. I have a sense that, "it is what it is" and I believe it is important to participate as much as possible. People may have divergent reasons for believing as they do but my sense is that many people feel that something is missing and with out this something, nothing makes sense. By believing that there is a God and a heaven and a higher purpose it gives life meaning with out a sense of higher purpose life becomes meaningless and a great void opens inside, with the belief in God and Heaven the void is filled. The filling of the void not only makes believers feel better it also provides them with the certaintanty of the existence of a soul. I believe that life begins and ends and what you do during your alloted time is what makes it worth living.

Ron, I disagree with Laurend you seem to have a very strong knowleged of the bible. As matter of fact you seem to have most of it memorized or in the very least you know it well enough to find the verse that backs up your position. If you only had some capacity for abstract thought you could then take that knowlegde and use it to come to some thought provoking ideas. Ron you are not an idea man, you are capable of reading the bible but unable to intepret it's words, it seems that you are able to understand the words literally. Abstract thinking is not your strong suit, that has been verified on this thread over and over again. You may want to stick to threads that are not in the Rant and Rave section. Many of the the folks who post in here love the debate and are very good abstract thinkers. They are also very well read and highly intelligent (believe me I do not put myself in that category, but I enjoy reading the posts) someone with your literal style and limited capacity for abstract thought can become painfully exposed here. I also try to add a little humour now and then

I see your true colours shining through, man you really put the mental in fundamentalist Christian. Like I said before don't let your hate rule you, learn to love your fellow man. We are all flawed but we must try and become better people. I implore you to think about what you are doing and try to see the error of your ways. Only then can you hope to become a good person, someone who in the end can feel confident they have lived a life worth living,

Ron, have you ever consderred that you may not always be right? You appear to reject that possiblity at all costs. Is there a chance that you may have a little racisim in you and it managed to present itself in your earlier statements. How can you improve as a person if you refuse to admit that you may at times make mistakes and that you of all people may be imperfect. The statement you make about crime is based on a racist opinion you may not even be aware, until now, you have. You can decide to become a better person and use this as a learning experience or you can continue to argue the point at the same time only prove the opposite is true. Your comment to ousooner was way offside, you are a follower of Christ not Christ. You have no right to judge his commitment to his beliefs you may think you have all the answers and I applaud your strong sense that you know what is right but you do not have all the answers and you never will. "Judge Not my Christian freind"

Where do you draw the line, there are a number of things in the bible that are considerred wrong, that today we would laugh at if laws were created to make them illegal. (An earlier post by T_O_M gave some examples) There has yet to be any discusion about why those things are not being put forward by Christians as requireing the legal system to support them I ask then is the opposition to homosexual relationships really based on the bible or is it based on an individual with prejudice using the bible to prove their argument and at the same time being able to deflect any implication of prejudice. What it comes down is you do not approve of homosexuals and rather than admitting to your prejudice you hide behind the bible. All the talk about love thy neighbour and such is really just a facade coverring a dislike for those who are different in some ways. People tend to fear what they don't understand and they also dislike what they fear. This causes a prejudice based on ignorance but it's easy to get over it. We also tend to believe unfounded statements about those we dislike because it justifies our hatred. The easiest way to get over prejudice is to commit to learning about those groups in society that we don't understand. If an individual decides to truly understand those who are different from them they soon discover that they are really not that different after all. If an individuall decides to do this everytime they feel a sense of dislike for another group they will soon discover that they have a changed perspective. Soon they no longer fear diversity but rather they see the value it brings to the world and hatred is extinguished. They say if you want to change the world but you feel you can't have an impact simply change the they way you percieve the world. Because the world is define by each of us based on our percetion of it by changing your perspective you have changed the world. Don't let hate rule you take control and choose to believe in the good in all people. Just a thought