DevilMayKare

There are no easy answers as to what one, all or a few of us may consider support at one time or another. Personally, sometimes I want my butt kicked and sometimes I want someone to give me a pat on the back, a hug and say, "Poor baby!" (I'm a single gal so that sure isn't coming from anywhere else.) There have been MANY times when I was doing really well (espically soon after banding) where I've read someone's posting and thought to myself, "Stop whining & get to work!" Thank god I've never succommed to that sort of hypocritical, self righteousness out loud, because there are always better, more supportive ways to express that. For MY MENTOR I have raptly listened to every word that comes out of our lady of the Vines. Her well-thought out, wise and supportive responses have put many of my flippant thoughts TO SHAME. There have been times she has really amazed me with the love she transfers to text. (She is not the only one, but I would say probably the best at that.) It's really great that we have this place, not only to come for support and not only to be supportive--but to be BETTER AT IT. On the few times that someone has PMd me and said something I wrote spoke to them my heart was filled more than chocolate could ever fill my gut. YAAA for ALL of us!! :clap2:

Thanks for that Megan. I think that's really important. I was a pretty perfect bandster for the first few months--but sooner or later the demons do tend to win out. Too often stuffing my face becomes a full-out COMPULSION and it isn't until I'm choking over the sink that I can stop. Is that totally foolish and stupid and do I KNOW IT?? Oh yeah. Maybe you won't do that, but if you had to get this surgery there's a pretty good chance you will. And when you do... forgive yourself and move on. Fat or thin, we've got to love ourselves.

D'ahlin, if theys one thing ya got--it's FEELIN'S! (Betcha got rhythm too.) Chocolate! You're chocolate! Drugs, I can live without but I'm having a tough time giving up the chocolate. That I am trying to do without, but I wouldn't wanna do without YOU! :sleep

Yeah, like anyone would need a REMINDER to watch out for you! GD&R

Please, PUHLEEEEEEZE men in white coats will you send some pretty pills to Delarla before she ballisticalizes again? And while you'r at it, send some my way too? What were those pills in Brave New World... soma? yeah, that oughta do it.

Well, I don't really think making fun of fat people is the same as making fun of blondes, but it seems like I'm the only one this bothers so I'll just grit my teeth and bear it. See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil. :lalala:

Okay I just have to vent this... am I the only one TOTALLY DISGUSTED by the commercials and the whole premise of this movie? Well, I don't really know the premise of it and don't intend to since I would never go see it, but as far as I can see from the commercials it's all about how funny a black guy dressed up as a big, fat woman is. WHAT IS SO FUNNY ABOUT THAT??!! I honestly feel like picketing. Or better yet, throwing egg salad at the people waiting in line. Why don't I see anyone in the media saying anything about this? Is it just me? Possibly I'm oversensitive and am the only one who feels this way. Am I???

Well, let's see... I'd better quote that in case you DELETE it and my response makes no sense. DAMN! WHERE is that "poke" emoticon. I can't seem to find it. Oh but, LOL -- I JUST found this one... :puke: Woulda been sooo appropo for the D'alahlin's post on another thread. (I can't believe there's a PUKING emoticon!!! What will they think of next???) And let me just add that anyone who thinks emotions get out of hand here shoulda been around for some of the "MAC vs PC" arguments I waded thru on the Compuserve desktop publishing forum in earlier days. The posts around here are tame comparably.

I just want to say that--pleasant or not--all the hoopla around here the past several days was definitely the most interesting part of my very boring weekend! I managed to stay away from snacking altogether because my fingers were busy here. All the kindess and sweet support on this board is much appreciated, but now and then I do enjoy reading a little rabble-rousing! Does that make me a bad person, or just pathetic?

My guess is all of the above. I feel exactly the same way, but I'm not on Lexopro (or anything) because I don't think any of them work longterm when depression and sadness or more of a life issue than a chemical imbalance. I'm a menopausal single mom too and already grieving for next fall when my youngest goes off to college and my nest is totally empty. (He's out w/ friends so much now it's almost like he's already left.) I have no words of wisdom except to say that you're not in this alone. Walking, music, long showers and a good book are about the best help I've found. Oh--and coming here for emtional support! Hang in there. :hug:

Scuze me for truncating your post Tommy O. It was those two points I wanted to comment on... Yes, it has been a little strange. There were a lot of emotions going on. That's what happens with people. I found it very interesting. And I learned some things... quite a few things actually. It's all part of the process. In my many years on forums (starting in the dark ages of Compuserve) sooner or later a big confrontation like that happens. It's all part of the forum process. As for what we need this to be... well, I think we need it to be exactly what it is. The moderators do a good job of reigining things in. (I think Alex said she went to bed early, or a couple of threads might have been calmed down a bit.) Please don't be scared away TommyO. Take what's good for you and leave the rest.

That's really cool John! So where's the article. BTW I love your tummy shots--that turned into titty shots. You are a hottie for sure!

Romance??! *Sigh* I don't even remember what it is. Six o'clock on a Saturday night and I'm taking a peek here before I go on my romantic weekend stoll with Tribble. (My dog.) Ten days before Valentine's Day--also my friggin bday--the whole world's goin hearts n' flowers bonkers. Could I be any more depressed? And sh*t --I can't even EAT about it! Lisa, what happened to that man you were gonna send me?

I've been a Mercury Insurance agent (auto & home) the last 4 years. Before that I was a freelance graphic designer for 12 years. The professions are so similar! :rolleyes (I'm planning to write the Great American Novel in my next reincarnation!)

You 'n me in a pool of mud next Vegas Bash girlfriend... And tell the boys no, they can't buy tickets! And where's Jack been anyway?

Yes, deletions can make threads kind of confusing! So if a post is quoted in another post and that post is deleted it still exists in the quote?? If so, then from now on when the D'Lahlin one posts something particularily rantsome or spicey one of us should quote the whole thing in a post & that way her deletion madness will be thwarted! hehehe...

Damn straight. I am waaay too smart for that! You obviously had a different approach & expectations than I. I didn't expect--or want--any kind of program, but I sure would want my doctor to take care of me during complications. As I recall your doctor didn't return all your calls or take care of the aftermath. I haven't heard of anyone having that experience with Dr Ortiz. When it's time for me to get PS I will probably do it in TJ. And is it risky? Hell yes. It's risky in the U.S. as well!! Surgery is risky--that's what all those forms we sign are all about. At least the Mexican surgeons know any misconduct will spread like wildfire on these boards! I think Mx is a valid option for those who want/need it. That's all I'm sayin.

You could be right. Maybe what I will need is another program someday. As for right now, I do not. And when I got my band that is not what I needed. Lisa, you don't think everyone has a right to choose for themselves? You may think I make foolish, stupid choices, but when it comes to MY body it is MY CHOICE. And I accept that it is my responsibility. (Please note I feel that way about everyone and anything they want to choose that does not hurt someone else... ie, drinking, drugs, whatever.) I am very happy that Dr Billy's words helped you. I've said it before and I'll say it again--I totally support you doing WHATEVER works for YOU! And I'm sorry Lisa, but holding up a 12 pound loss as proof is totally flawed logic. Like you've never lost 12 pounds before. Like I haven't. Like I haven't lost 152 pounds without a band. OMG, what the HECK am I doing arguing with YOU??? You are way too scarey for me to take on. :bananajump: :yield: I just want people to be able to make the choices they need to because MX was a good option for me. **Note disclaimer and permission for a big "I TOLD YOU SO" from you to me if called for in the future.

Well Alex, perhaps I "SHOULDN'T" think that but I do. That is all I need from my surgeon. Putting the band in place and helping me with any physical complications suits me fine. In my (humble) opinion no one, no matter how educated, should think that the responsibility lies with anyone other than themselves to decide what is right for THEM. ANd, just because I seem to be feelin' troublesome this morning I have to say that personally I have known too many screwy psychologists and heard people given advice that runs the gambit to put my faith in one of them as anything but an assist. (Surely you don't think psych counseling is ANY guarantee of success? How many people do you think it has chased away? My guess is LOTS.) Hey--this is AMERICA land of the free and home of the brave! We are free to make our own choices and I will defend anyone's right to choose MEXICO! (PLEASE READ THAT WITH THE LAUGH I'M SENDING WITH IT!)

Thanks Donali. Okay ya'll don't jump on me. Big Paul had some good points, but for ME--basically, I disagree. For younger and people with less experience with WL programs it's a good idea to go somewhere with a whole program, but that isn't what I needed. I'm a 50-yr-old, educated woman who has been thru more programs than I can count. I have a BA degree and also (while practically a poster child for WW in my 30's) became a certified Physical Fitness Expert (hardly anyone knows this, because I never used that certification [i rarely tell people because it's embarassing to be a fat fitness expert!]). I have read every study re weightloss that has come my way for DECADES. ANd when it comes to weightloss (& gain) I AM AN EXPERT. No, I don't have an MD, but I've got enough knowledge and experience to decide some things for myself. In some ways I think I understand this issue more than any skinny MD ever could. You can study how to balance on a bike and know all the physics of it without being able to ride one. I don't need someone to tell me to eat vegetables--or ask me the calorie count of an apple vs a muffin. I KNOW THAT. Over and over and over I know that and the thought of sitting thru another lecture on it is enough to make me EAT a muffin! I find many of the HOOPS American doctors and insurance companies make people jump thru before agreeing to surgery at the least stupid and at the most negligent. When a 300# woman walks in your office you need her to see a psychologist?? No doubt most of us (including myself) could benefit from some analysis, but if we are enabled to lose 100# first we MAY find there are other issues we can spend our time--and money--on. Now please--this is just for ME but I have to say I am more than appreciative that I could go down to Mexico and just get what I needed. For the rest of what I need--shared experiences and emotional support I come HERE. I'm within 2 hours of TJ so Dr Ortiz is close enough for an emergency and from what I have seen he is WAY MORE AVAILABLE than most American doctors. His office has a nutritionist and a support board IF you NEED it. I appreciate being treated like an adult that can take advantage of what helps me and not waste my time with what does not. There is merit in what Paul said, but as has been said before it is a complicated issue and we all have our individual needs. Thank goodness there are choices!

La Madam, DeLarla, Penni, Donali and the rest of our eroded band sisters had interesting, insightful, encouraging and even inspiring things to share before, during and after their banding & unbanding. As I heard of each erosion my first reaction was heartfelt concern and empathy for them--my second reaction was a selfish one. I thought to myself, "Oh no! Now they're going to leave us!!" And felt a fear of LOSING their wonderful contributions. I am SO GLAD that they haven't left. They all contribute to my well-being everytime I log on.

Okay, this is somewhat off topic, but I HAVE to point out that the golden rule is NOT "if you do not have anything nice to say..." It's the DO UNTO OTHERS... rule. This is--rightly so-- an emotional topic. Perhaps we should ALL still our hearts and hurts for JUST A MOMENT and reflect on THE GOLDEN RULE--held as a universal truth in human faiths and philosophies: <!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><!--msthemelist--><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->Bahá'í World Faith: <!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><!--msthemelist--><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme--><!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->"And if thine eyes be turned towards justice, choose thou for thy neighbour that which thou choosest for thyself." Epistle to the Son of the Wolf<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--></TBODY></TABLE><!--mstheme--><!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->Brahmanism: "This is the sum of duty: Do naught unto others which would cause you pain if done to you". Mahabharata, 5:1517<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->Buddhism: <!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><!--msthemelist--><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->"...a state that is not pleasing or delightful to me, how could I inflict that upon another?" Samyutta NIkaya v. 353 <!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful." Udana-Varga 5:18<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--></TBODY></TABLE><!--mstheme--><!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->Christianity: <!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><!--msthemelist--><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12, King James Version.<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->"And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." Luke 6:31, King James Version.<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme--><!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--></TBODY></TABLE><!--mstheme--><!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->Confucianism: <!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><!--msthemelist--><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->"Do not do to others what you do not want them to do to you" Analects 15:23<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->"Tse-kung asked, 'Is there one word that can serve as a principle of conduct for life?' Confucius replied, 'It is the word 'shu' -- reciprocity. Do not impose on others what you yourself do not desire.'" Doctrine of the Mean 13.3<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->"Try your best to treat others as you would wish to be treated yourself, and you will find that this is the shortest way to benevolence." Mencius VII.A.4<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--></TBODY></TABLE><!--mstheme--><!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->Ancient Egyptian:<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--> <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><!--msthemelist--><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->"Do for one who may do for you, that you may cause him thus to do." The Tale of the Eloquent Peasant, 109 - 110 Translated by R.B. Parkinson. The original dates to 1970 to 1640 BCE and may be the earliest version ever written. <SUB>3</SUB><!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--></TBODY></TABLE><!--mstheme--><!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->Hinduism: <!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><!--msthemelist--><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->"One should not behave towards others in a way which is disagreeable to oneself." Mencius Vii.A.4 <!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->"This is the sum of the Dharma [duty]: do naught unto others which would cause you pain if done to you." Mahabharata 5:1517<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--></TBODY></TABLE><!--mstheme--><!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->Humanism:<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--> <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><!--msthemelist--><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->"(5) Humanists acknowledge human interdependence, the need for mutual respect and the kinship of all humanity."<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->"(11) Humanists affirm that individual and social problems can only be resolved by means of human reason, intelligent effort, critical thinking joined with compassion and a spirit of empathy for all living beings. " <SUB>4</SUB><!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->"Don't do things you wouldn't want to have done to you, British Humanist Society. <SUB>3</SUB><!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--></TBODY></TABLE><!--mstheme--><!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->Islam: "None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself." Number 13 of Imam "Al-Nawawi's Forty Hadiths." <SUB>5</SUB><!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->Jainism: <!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><!--msthemelist--><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->"Therefore, neither does he [a sage] cause violence to others nor does he make others do so." Acarangasutra 5.101-2. <!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->"In happiness and suffering, in joy and grief, we should regard all creatures as we regard our own self." Lord Mahavira, 24th Tirthankara<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->"A man should wander about treating all creatures as he himself would be treated. "Sutrakritanga 1.11.33<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--></TBODY></TABLE><!--mstheme--><!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->Judaism: <!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><!--msthemelist--><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->"...thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.", Leviticus 19:18 <!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->"What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow man. This is the law: all the rest is commentary." Talmud, Shabbat 31a.<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->"And what you hate, do not do to any one." Tobit 4:15 <SUB>6</SUB><!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--></TBODY></TABLE><!--mstheme--><!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->Native American Spirituality: <!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><!--msthemelist--><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->"Respect for all life is the foundation." The Great Law of Peace.<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->"All things are our relatives; what we do to everything, we do to ourselves. All is really One." Black Elk<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--></TBODY></TABLE><!--mstheme--><!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->Roman Pagan Religion: "The law imprinted on the hearts of all men is to love the members of society as themselves."<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->Shinto: "The heart of the person before you is a mirror. See there your own form"<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->Sikhism: <!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><!--msthemelist--><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->Compassion-mercy and religion are the support of the entire world". Japji Sahib <!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->"Don't create enmity with anyone as God is within everyone." Guru Arjan Devji 259<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->"No one is my enemy, none a stranger and everyone is my friend." Guru Arjan Dev : AG 1299<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--></TBODY></TABLE><!--mstheme--><!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->Sufism: "The basis of Sufism is consideration of the hearts and feelings of others. If you haven't the will to gladden someone's heart, then at least beware lest you hurt someone's heart, for on our path, no sin exists but this." Dr. Javad Nurbakhsh, Master of the Nimatullahi Sufi Order.<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->Taoism: <!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><!--msthemelist--><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->"Regard your neighbor's gain as your own gain, and your neighbor's loss as your own loss." T'ai Shang Kan Ying P'ien. <!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->"The sage has no interest of his own, but takes the interests of the people as his own. He is kind to the kind; he is also kind to the unkind: for Virtue is kind. He is faithful to the faithful; he is also faithful to the unfaithful: for Virtue is faithful." Tao Teh Ching, Chapter 49 <!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--></TBODY></TABLE><!--mstheme--><!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->Unitarian: "We affirm and promote respect for the interdependent of all existence of which we are a part." Unitarian principles. <!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->Wicca: "An it harm no one, do what thou wilt" (i.e. do what ever you will, as long as it harms nobody, including yourself). One's will is to be carefully thought out in advance of action. This is called the Wiccan Rede<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->Yoruba: (Nigeria): "One going to take a pointed stick to pinch a baby bird should first try it on himself to feel how it hurts."<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->Zoroastrianism: <!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><!--msthemelist--><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->"That nature alone is good which refrains from doing unto another whatsoever is not good for itself". Dadistan-i-dinik 94:5<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->"Whatever is disagreeable to yourself do not do unto others." Shayast-na-Shayast 13:29<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--></TBODY></TABLE><!--mstheme--><!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--></TBODY></TABLE><!--mstheme--><!--msthemeseparator--> Some philosophers' statements are: <!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><!--msthemelist--><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->Epictetus: "What you would avoid suffering yourself, seek not to impose on others." (circa 100 CE)<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->Plato: "May I do to others as I would that they should do unto me." (Greece; 4<SUP>th</SUP> century BCE)<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->Socrates: "Do not do to others that which would anger you if others did it to you." (Greece; 5<SUP>th</SUP> century BCE)<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->Seneca: "Treat your inferiors as you would be treated by your superiors," Epistle 47:11 (Rome; 1<SUP>st</SUP> century CE)<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Okay... am I the only one going, "his ARM?" I mean I could see your hand getting sore or your wrist--but your WHOLE ARM??? So I guess now we know where the Big Paul moniker comes from. ROTFLOL... But now... :focus: I'm with Vines on this one. I think you should have your hormones checked. You might have to be firm and demand it if you have an HMO but they can really make a difference. I didn't find Estrogen made me randy--but when I started a low dose of testosterone--WATCHOUT! Unfortunately I haven't had sex for ages but not only did that stuff make me horney as all getout it made me start cussing at the other drivers on the road!! Seriously, I have never been an aggresive driver, but I switched to every other day when I found myself wanting to strangle ever other person in the fwy traffic!

Crystal, whatever the challenge is--you are a strong, insightful, POWERFUL woman and you ARE up to it! I know you know that in your heart of hearts. And also know we're all here for the times you don't believe it.

That is SOOO TRUE! In fact in our culture many of them are actually admired! What is someone like Hugh Heffner if not a glutton for sex? Okay, perhaps the literal term would be sybarite--but sure seems like a gluttonous lifestyle to me. I am NOT saying it is WRONG. I'm just saying that excess in somethings is often ADMIRED and even envied in our society when it is applied to other areas. Something is wrong with that.