Who’s getting tired of all the ads that are calling the proposals for Health Care reform “Socialized Medicine”? Even the most liberal approach to the reforms “Single Payer” is not at all socialized medicine. At most, it might me considered “socialized payment” or “socialized administration”. None of the plans call for socialized medicine, if you are one that falls for this misinformation then the Insurance Companies are getting just what they want from you.

A more realistic example of socialized medicine would be the British System, in which the hospitals are run by the government and the doctors are on the payroll of the government. Another example closer to home would be the VA in which the government provides the hospitals and the doctors to vets. What is being proposed here “Single Payer or a Government Option” is a system in which the federal program only takes the place of the insurance company and pays the bills to the doctors or the hospitals. This program is more analogous to the Canadian and French systems. The beauty of this program is that it takes away the insanity that doctors have to go thru in dealing with hundreds of separate carriers and it provides coverage for everyone regardless of pre-existing conditions.

Do you really have a personal relationship with your insurance provider today? Do you even have a choice in which carrier you get? Most people don’t, they have to take whatever carrier their company provides for them. And then, once they take the carrier that is provided, they usually have to pick a doctor that is on the plan that the company offers. I don’t know about you, but that doesn’t sound like a lot of free choice to me. You are being lied to by Insurance Companies. Single Payer will provide more choice and more cost savings to the average household. The only group that will suffer form this are the Insurance Carriers, and they will tell you every lie they can to stop it from being implemented. I don’t have a lot of sympathy for these companies. The way I see it, they are a big reason costs have escalated and quality of care has decreased over the last 30 years.

His full name–as by now you have probably heard–is Barack Hussein Obama, Jr. Hussein is a Muslim name, which comes from the name of Ali’s son–Hussein Ibn Ali. And Obama is named after his late Kenyan father, the late Barack Hussein Obama, Sr., apparently a Muslim.

And while Obama may not identify as a Muslim, that’s not how the Arab and Muslim Streets see it. In Arab culture and under Islamic law, if your father is a Muslim, so are you. And once a Muslim, always a Muslim. You cannot go back. In Islamic eyes, Obama is certainly a Muslim. He may think he’s a Christian, but they do not.

I couldn't care less what the Muslim world considers President Obama. They are not American citizens, they don't vote here. Their views are irrelevant. The American people know that he was reared by a Christian mother and grandparents and when he was of age to choose his religion, he chose christianity.

This comes from their website. I just copied and pasted. My point is highlighted in red.

Center History

When the Annenberg Public Policy Center (APPC) was established in 1993, its founders, Ambassadors Walter and Leonore Annenberg, sought to increase the impact of the scholarship produced at Penn’s Annenberg School for Communication, the Policy Center’s home. It was their hope that the APPC would apply its knowledge about communication to improve the well-being of those in the U.S. and throughout the globe. In the subsequent years, APPC research has been put to use in studies of adolescent health, HIV and AIDS, media content analysis and political civility.

Funding for APPC comes through an endowment established by the Annenberg Foundation, as well as the generous support of federal agencies and foundations.

APPC projects are overseen by a staff of 54 people.

So, I guess this means that when bush was president, factcheck.org posted lies about bush, in his favor. Hmmmm.

Where is the proof that Obama is/was a Muslim - from a reputable source - not some right wing/conservative and/or "christian" website.

Also - prove that factcheck.org is a government funded site.

Again - with the same type of sources.

It's easy to denounce neutral websites that debunk myths and lies when you don't agree with them. Most reasonable people go to factcheck.org or snopes for the truth about internet rumors.

If I just started making up lies about bush and found some whacko site to support them and then dismissed any/all sites or information to the contrary - well, that would be easy, wouldn't it? Just dismiss the truth and perpetuate the lies.

There are many who are christian who support gay marriage, are pro-choice and who believe in helping the least among us. I am one of them and you are in no position to judge whether I am a christian by your definition or not (and don't say it's God's definition because I can read the bible too, and come to my OWN interpretations/conclusions, just as you have).

Christians who support gay marriage and abortions are christians who have not read their bible and what God says about those issues. You can be a christian (a believer in Jesus), yet be wrong on your stand on an issue. It doesn't mean that God does not allow you into heaven when you die, it just means that you are wrong about what God says about that issue. There are many denominations of Christianity for that reason, but there are black and whites in the bible that have no gray area. Abortion and Gay marriage and stealing, among other issues, are those black and white issues that can not be disputed amongst believers. God said so and that's that! There is no other interpretation for those issues.

Lev. 18:22

, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."

Lev. 20:13

, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"

1 Cor. 6:9-10

, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

Rom. 1:26-28

, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."

The voters knew Pres. Obama's stand on abortion, gays and helping those who are unable to help themselves and they overwhelmingly voted for him - therefore, it is your views that are out of touch with mainstream American voters.

Jesus said,"Enter through the narrow gate, for wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." (Matthew 7:13,14)

I'm glad to be on the narrow road, and entering through the small gate. You may be part of the 'mainstream' public, but my views are the correct ones, and will lead me in the path of righteousness and life. Maybe you should reconsider your views so that they are in line with your christian faith, for to be a 'Christ'ian, one must believe 'Christ'.

So, I guess this means that when bush was president, factcheck.org posted lies about bush, in his favor. Hmmmm.

I'm not sure. I never heard of fact check until I just looked into it when you started using it on this forum. But, if they did, it was wrong. I don't believe that Bush had anything to hide though. He was a pretty honest man. Obama, OTOH, has lied many times during his campaign and presidency.

The voters knew Pres. Obama's stand on abortion, gays and helping those who are unable to help themselves and they overwhelmingly voted for him - therefore, it is your views that are out of touch with mainstream American voters.

Jesus said,"Enter through the narrow gate, for wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." (Matthew 7:13,14)

I'm glad to be on the narrow road, and entering through the small gate. You may be part of the 'mainstream' public, but my views are the correct ones, and will lead me in the path of righteousness and life. Maybe you should reconsider your views so that they are in line with your christian faith, for to be a 'Christ'ian, one must believe 'Christ'.

You are the last person from whom I need advice or a lecture about changing my views. I am very comfortable with my views about faith and religion and the bible.

And your views are the correct ones? Talk about arrogance!!

I'm not sure. I never heard of fact check until I just looked into it when you started using it on this forum. But, if they did, it was wrong. I don't believe that Bush had anything to hide though. He was a pretty honest man. Obama, OTOH, has lied many times during his campaign and presidency.

bush was a pretty honest man?? I almost choked on that one. It would be a full time job to chronicle all his lies but this link is a start, but of course I'm sure you will dismiss the lies and the facts:

Biggest Bush Lies

You are the last person from whom I need advice or a lecture about changing my views. I am very comfortable with my views about faith and religion and the bible.

And your views are the correct ones? Talk about arrogance!!

Why am I the last one to give you advice on the christian faith and God's views on issues? I happen to be very knowledgeable of the bible. I have been studying it and even teaching it for 25 years and have gone to bible school and have completed a ministers course. You say you are comfortable with your views, and you say you are a christian. Then how can your views be so contradictory of the Christian faith? This I can not understand. Why do you say I am arrogant? If you are a Christian, and I am a Christian, our views should be similar, yet they aren't. Someones not a christian, and I know it's not me. Or, are you a christian in name only? There are many who say that they are Christians, yet their actions and beliefs do not coincide. Obama is an example of this kind of Christian.

Why am I the last one to give you advice on the christian faith and God's views on issues? I happen to be very knowledgeable of the bible. I have been studying it and even teaching it for 25 years and have gone to bible school and have completed a ministers course. You say you are comfortable with your views, and you say you are a christian. Then how can your views be so contradictory of the Christian faith? This I can not understand. Why do you say I am arrogant? If you are a Christian, and I am a Christian, our views should be similar, yet they aren't. Someones not a christian, and I know it's not me. Or, are you a christian in name only? There are many who say that they are Christians, yet their actions and beliefs do not coincide. Obama is an example of this kind of Christian.

I have been a christian for 58 years and I am sure there are many conclusions that my religion has reached that you do not agree with. The pope and the Catholic church are not in agreement in its beliefs with all of the other non-catholic christian denominations or even the non-denominational christian faiths.

Therefore, if the catholic church, which represents billions of people, has arrived at different biblical conclusions than others leaders of christian religions, then who is right?

So, if learned religious leaders can't agree, then I don't see why you think YOUR conclusions are the correct one.

I have been a christian for 58 years and I am sure there are many conclusions that my religion has reached that you do not agree with. The pope and the Catholic church are not in agreement in its beliefs with all of the other non-catholic christian denominations or even the non-denominational christian faiths.

Therefore, if the catholic church, which represents billions of people, has arrived at different biblical conclusions than others leaders of christian religions, then who is right?

So, if learned religious leaders can't agree, then I don't see why you think YOUR conclusions are the correct one.

There may be differences in nonconsequencial things between denominations, but sin is sin no matter what denomination you are in. You can't argue with that. There are no differences. A lie is a lie whether your catholic or baptist or pentecostal. Homosexuality is homosexuality no matter what your faith is . Murder is murder. Stealing is stealing and it's the same no matter what christian name is written over your door.

There may be differences in nonconsequencial things between denominations, but sin is sin no matter what denomination you are in. You can't argue with that. There are no differences. A lie is a lie whether your catholic or baptist or pentecostal. Homosexuality is homosexuality no matter what your faith is . Murder is murder. Stealing is stealing and it's the same no matter what christian name is written over your door.

I don't believe those differences are inconsequential because they arose from a different interpretation of the bible and reached different conclusions which has been my whole point. Learned religious scholars can come to different conclusions but somehow we lay people are too stupid to understand the bible and reach our own conclusions. That's why the Jesuits in medieval times didn't want the people to be able to read - because they might read the bible and come to different conclusions.

The catholic church has come to the conclusion that:

-they are the one true church

-there is heaven, hell, purgatory and limbo

-Mary is elevated to Blessed and is ever virgin (never had relations with Joseph)

-there are holy days of obligation (sin not to attend mass)

-confess sins to a priest to be forgiven

-pray to saints to intercede

and many other things that have not been concluded or interpreted by other chrisitan religions. These things are not inconsequential.

But the bigger point is that religions can believe what they want about moral issues. And preach the same. But they should not try to dictate public policy based on their religious beliefs or moral issues.

:thumbup:

re: " Health Care is a right that every American should have, just like access to schools, roads, police and fire service, and national security."

Given the difference between what such notable documents such as the Constitution identify as the role of government, perhaps we can see how there is such a debate about what "rights" are or "should be".

The courts have defined the role of police is a general, not a specific-to-the-individual "serve and protect" function; yet we support them in every community in the land.

Fire service is commendable in the coverage it does extend, yet it is not mentioned in our basic Constitution.

Regardless of such as 'Brown vs Board of Education' where are we obligated to fund public education? Not making the argument we shouldn't....just asking where does the legal entitlement actually arise?

Re: "right to health care"

Personally I believe the need for food and shelter is at a higher level of daily need for most folks; given that point, why does 'health care' occupy a larger amount of public debate?....so too with 'right to move about the realm' on those public roads without the fear of highway men or potholes...why is there no outcry for basic vehicles provided wide scale to solve all those nagging problems?

KartMan, I do agree with you about national security. That at least IS mentioned as a governmental responsibility.

cheers for the Fourth!!!

Get a grip Jack move forward to today,the cost of medical care of most types have risen so much that Grandpa can't even afford a unfinanced root canal much less a broken leg:angry:

I have never been able to understand the policies and doctrines of the Catholic church myself. They say they believe the bible is God's words, yet it's hard to believe they could have ever read the book, what with the doctrines and beliefs they have for their people. Many , not all, of these doctrines are their own traditions, and are not found in scripture. This is why the bible teaches that the wisdom of man is foolishness unto God. He promises blessings and truth to those who will take the time to read what he has to say to them. (And not just pull a sentence from the whole book and build a lifestyle out of it, but read the WHOLE thing together.)

But the bigger point is that religions can believe what they want about moral issues. And preach the same. But they should not try to dictate public policy based on their religious beliefs or moral issues.

Yes they should. All of our laws are determined by a moral policy. Is it okay to steal? No. That's why we have laws against robbery, theft and the like. Is it okay morally to lie? No. That's why we have laws against purgery. Is it morally okay to abuse someone? No. that's why we have laws against it. Well, you get my point. Who says that lying, stealing and abuse is wrong? The one who made you did. If it were not for his laws, you wouldn't even know right from wrong. His laws give us the basis for knowing what's right and what's not, otherwise, we would live in a land where anything goes, for whose to say what's wrong for me or you.

I have never been able to understand the policies and doctrines of the Catholic church myself. They say they believe the bible is God's words, yet it's hard to believe they could have ever read the book, what with the doctrines and beliefs they have for their people. Many , not all, of these doctrines are their own traditions, and are not found in scripture. This is why the bible teaches that the wisdom of man is foolishness unto God. He promises blessings and truth to those who will take the time to read what he has to say to them. (And not just pull a sentence from the whole book and build a lifestyle out of it, but read the WHOLE thing together.)

But that's where you're wrong. The catholic church has biblical references and justifications for each of it's beliefs and positions, including the few I listed. Now, they claim to have been around for 2000 years (since Jesus told Peter - upon this rock I will build my church) and believe they get it right. It's the other christian denominations that get it wrong. Same bible - different conclusions. WHICH IS MY WHOLE POINT!!!

We can all read the bible and reach our OWN conclusions - we don't need an organized religion to do it for us. And that's if we believe in the bible, many people do not.

And the bigger point is: THE MAJORITY OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE DO NOT WANT A RELIGIOUS BELIEF/INSTITUTION TO PUSH GOVERNMENT DOCTRINE/POLICY/LAW.