I have a theory that all of the emphasis on the Atkins-like high protein/low carb eating patterns in this forum is because the US doctors are much more familiar with the bypass operation and they don't distinguish it from lapbanders. I want to see whether or not Australians are getting the same recommendations to eat high protein, drink protein supplements, etc. I know my doctor has not advised me to do this in any way and recommends a balanced diet of all the food groups, with smaller portions and low fat/low calorie intake. I feel this is a MUCH healthier approach, as there are distinct dangers in going the Atkins route (kidney stones, high cholesterol, etc). So what's your experience?

I eat less than 25 g of fat a day on average and my cholesterol is 131. You keep saying eating this way isn't healthy, but not offering any evidence to back that up.

So, you're obviously not eating the way I'm talking about. You cant base your diet on salami and cheese and eat less than 25 grams of fat a day. Nor could you keep the salt content in control!

But I dont need to back anything up Mac, I'm expressing an opinion. Its not surprising that it differs from others becuase i grew up in a different country.

I harbour some other weird ideas too - I am wary of artificial sweeteners and I cant for the life of me understand why you'd use coffee creamer - chemicals instead of milk? Why? I cant understand why coffee needs to come with shots of syrup and whipped cream. I also dont get manufactured puddings or stuff like that. I think its highly dangerous to focus on Protein only and assume various foods are healthy becuse they're low carb - when they're full of crap that will probably give you ten brain tumours by the time you're 50. I think the idea of pumpkin in a can is bizarre and that multi purpose dough in a can is plain revolting. Who on earth is too freaking lazy to make dough?

I'm not stating medical fact, I'm stating opinion. Its what I think, you dont have to agree with it. My opinion is that today I've eaten cantalope, berries, pineapple and orange juice (fruit salad), Beans, zucchini, leeks, onion, mushrooms and tonight will be ingesting pearl barley, lentils and chick peas, tomato, carrot, celery and lamb - all contained in fresh, home made Soup, fruit salad and a stew - amongst other things such as some skim milk, a Protein shake containing a banana etc and,. I will go to my grave insisting that even though I may have had less protein than the next person, that is a FAR more nutritionally complete and less artificial days intake than scrambled eggs with cheese, cheese rolled in slices of ham, Protein Bar and a Lean Cuisine with its paltry excuse for a bit of greenery. If I were trying to get 100 grams of protein, which I supposedly "need" at my level of physical activity, then I wouldnt have had the stomach space for all those good fresh organic vegetables.

Tomorrow, I might eat more protein foods, I dont really care. It just depends.

But for what its worth I think high protein diets can be heatlhy, and that nobody needs gutloads of processed grains. But I think there's an awful lot of bandsters out there that may be getting enough protein and may be keeping the calories low but who are doing not one single good thing for their health with their overly processed diets.

Edited January 29, 200917 yr by Jachut

So, you're obviously not eating the way I'm talking about. You cant base your diet on salami and cheese and eat less than 25 grams of fat a day.

Well of course not, salami is gross! :thumbup:

But I do eat a lot of eggs and cheese and not a lot of veggies. I eat a lot more veggies than some people I know with my WLS, but not a lot compared to the un-altered. I'll eat more as I get farther out, but I'll never eat 5 servings of fruits & veggies a day. I'm not convinced that's necessary.

But I dont need to back anything up Mac, I'm expressing an opinion.

But if you express an opinion publicly, you have to expect people to challenge it. :scared:

The medical industrial complex (as I think of them) in the US is very attached to a high carb, low fat way of life. They preach this constantly and when Atkins first came out, they went nuts. They said people would get heart disease, have high cholesterol, etc. But that hasn't happened.

Now I think Atkins is a bit too extreme for a lifetime, but the basic principles of eating a higher Protein, lower carb diet are sound, IMO. Carbs are for quick energy -- which people working desk jobs don't need the way people who do hard labor do.

I harbour some other weird ideas too - I am wary of artificial sweeteners and I cant for the life of me understand why you'd use coffee creamer - chemicals instead of milk? Why? I cant understand why coffee needs to come with shots of syrup and whipped cream. I also dont get manufactured puddings or stuff like that.

Then, I think many of these people would be eating in ways you think are unhealthy even if they weren't low carbing it. Because instead of eating salami, they'd be eating processed carbs.

I think its highly dangerous to focus on protein only

It's not focusing on protein only, though, but protein first. It's pretty hard to get 100 g a day (what I also need for my activity level) without focusing on it.

The other thing is, it's not forever. The human body is made for hunting and gathering. That means we are designed to be able to store stuff and to live off our stores. So for, say, six months, I can eat mostly protein and I won't be malnourished. If I did it for years, that would be different.

And eventually my stomach will be at it's biggest size and I will be at goal weight and I will be eating more and so I will have more variety. As I add in more calories, it will not be more protein, but more veggies, fruits and nuts and even some more starchy stuff like a baby red potato.

In the meantime, it's recommended by most of the experts, even the ones that don't buy the low carb way, that when you are on a very low calorie diet, you should eat a lot of protein to preserve lean muscle mass. So, given that, I think not eating the way I am would be the unhealthy thing. I need the protein more now.

My surgeon wants my calories to come from 'meats and vegetables' and not from liquids and supplements. Yes, he does want us to eat from all good groups. Yes, I do eat carbs such as oatmeal, and Kashi cereal but I seldom eat any kind of bread anymore (I was previously addicted to bread!). I normally either have an apple or prunes as an afternoon snack. I aim for 60-70grams of protein per day but don't normally log the carbs. So far so good - I'm down 55.5 lbs! What's great is that I don't crave carbs, I'm not hungry between meals, and my hair isn't falling out. (I'm in the U.S)

That's more what I'm meaning. I probably make it sound so at times, but I am in no way advocating that people need lots of carbs - Cereal for Breakfast, bread for lunch and Pasta for dinner. I just dont think its necessary to eat mainly Protein foods.

Mac, I'm afraid well just have to disagree on the vegetable issue, lol - my thoughts are that its NOT temporary, you CANT go without them for even six months (it took me 2 years to lose my weight) and that you're risking other areas of health, such as your digestive health. But we're all adults and make our own decisions as to what's right.

I'm really an advocate of more balance, not an extreme one way or another. But there's me and thousands of successful Australian bandsters that are living proof that you do NOT need a hundred grams of protein a day to maintain your lean muscle. I've lost my weight and improved my body composition on more like 50 to 60 grams a day, muscle wasting happens on ANY very low calorie diet, protein based or not. Its important to keep your muscle mass so that you keep your weight off, yet there's not a lot of evidence around that a high protein diet works any better LONG term than anything else.

I also think, people are quick to jump on the "its high carbs that cause heart disease" bandwagon and forget entirely that many of the people dying of heart disease now are people of my parents generation - who grew up on full fat milk, cream, cheese, butter, eggs, drippings out of the roasting pan etc. So, yes, they changed to the high carb/low fat way of life when they 'saw the light' in the 80's but how do we really know how much that contributed as opposed to their early lives up to middle age?

I just think its too complicated to entirely believe any way is right. And very naive to think we wont be all be advocating something ELSE as healthy in another 20 years when there's a whole swag of new evidence supposedly "proving" what we're doing now is unhealthy.

But there's me and thousands of successful Australian bandsters that are living proof that you do NOT need a hundred grams of Protein a day to maintain your lean muscle.

Ah, but don't forget I don't have a band. Because I'm losing at a faster rate, more like a bypasser, I need to worry more about lean muscle loss. You should see some of those bypassers who don't, btw. They look kind of like walking skeletons. That's not what I want for myself.

True - they look just like someone who's done 12 weeks of Optifast. Scary.

MacMadame, that is a great point, considering that you are a bypasser. Regarding lean muscle mass, everyone should be worried about losing muscle during weight loss.

The nutritional requirement for adult women is approximately 46g of whole Protein per day to avoid a deficiency. I don't think any of us posting on this board eat whatever we want to, whenever - we all have guidelines we use to control our eating, whether it's intuitive, counting calories, logging our food intake, etc. Part of however we lose weight or maintain our weight is to keep track of ourselves somehow - this likely includes making sure that we are healthy, along with the benefits of actual weight loss.

Here's an example. On a *typical* day, I eat 30% or less of my calories as fat (about 470 calories). 20% - 30% of my calories come from lean protein (about 200 calories), and about 30% of my calories come from complex carbs (another 550 calories). I eat roughly 1200 calories per day, depending on my activity level. While it isn't considered "low carb", it is low-calorie, low-fat, and generally HIGH in protein (slightly more than 46g per day). I work out and am very physically active, so my personal protein requirement is increased. This is true for anyone who is very physically active.

I have known people who have suffered horrible consequences as a result of losing weight quickly without paying attention to consuming enough protein. Protein deficiency leads to nitrogen deficiency, which can have disastrous effects on the body. I had a good friend with hair loss, immune deficiency issues, and tooth loss because she failed to eat enough protein. She lost weight, yes, but was extremely unhealthy in the long-term. Just my humble opinion, which I've formed from past experience.

Be well, everyone!

One more thought - even if someone is eating 100 grams of protein per day, that's still only 400 calories worth of energy. Relatively speaking, that's not a lot - if you're eating the rest of your calories as fat (9 calories / gram) and carbs (4 calories / gram), that leaves a lot of room to have a pretty diverse diet.

Edited February 4, 200917 yr by sara7venus
typo

I agree completely with you Sarah on the more moderate amounts of Protein, that leaves room for other valuable nutrients too. Better to get 50 grams of protein in a day and your nearly your complete requirement of say, Calcium too, or as much Vitamin C as you need than get 100 grams of protein and get osteoporosis or have your teeth fall out from scurvey kind of thing.

As bandsters, we ARE going to fall somewhat short of ideal nutrition, its unavoidable. I just dont get that one nutrient matters more than another. And you cant make it up with pills, science KNOWS that. The complex chemistry between the chemicals in foods cannot be replicated.

But be careful when you say its 4 calories per gram of protein. To get 100 grams of protein out of any food, there are other calories packed in there. To get 100 grams of protein from cheese, you'd eat more than 400 calories!. That's my point. Choose your protein sources wisely otherwise you get a gobload of fat, salt and preservatives, and you cant bury your head in the sand and say "this is healthy coz its high protein" and then tsk tsk becuase someone owns up to eating a slice of wholegrain bread.

Edited February 5, 200917 yr by Jachut

Hi... I'm to start a modified South Beach diet and I have some reservations that I plan to discuss with my urologist & dietician this week...with only one kidney these diets seem rather kidney stressful. Anyway I plan on continuing with my regular diabetic exchange diet (I'm not diabetic) but decrease the calories.

The only time I have ever had kidney stones was on Atkins. I had done Atkins in the late '70's and lost 45 pounds. When I went on it about 18 months ago, I developed kidney stones. So I agree with you PMCFarm - check with your doctor about kidney strain!

Good luck

High Protein/Low Carb and Low Fat. Eating salami and bacon is not the answer by any stretch.

I have bi-polar disorder. Since moving to a high Protein low carb diet, by mood and cognitive functions have stabilized at an increased level from pre diet and pre surgery levels.

Studies have shown that this type of diet helps to quiet the mind and stabilize mood swings. I am inclined to agree.

Jack LaLaine once said "If men make it, don't eat it" I think that is the path I will follow.

First, so you know from the beginning. We sell Protein, but that doesn't mean we are not highly ethical.

I am responding to the observation that (roughly) the recommenders of protein are all vendors, while all the academics recommend balanced diets.

We agree that skepticism, even cynicism, is well founded. But the DIET vendors (e.g. Atkins, South Beach) aren't simply selling protein, however; they are selling their branded diets.

Protein itself, does not have a good "commercial" supporter because protein is not a proprietary brand. Merck, for example, is the only company that can sell the brand Vioxx, but anyone can sell protein. So they can price it high and make great margins with no competitors. This is not true of "protein". As a result, we think protein is UNDER-researched.

There is no research that says you need to limit your protein within a normal range, unless you have severe kidney disease already -- that is, your kidneys are about to fail. You can read about tolerable protein intake from the National Academy of Sciences, the leading science/academic authority in the US by far:

Dietary Reference Intakes for Energy, Carbohydrate, Fiber, Fat, Fatty Acids, Cholesterol, Protein, and Amino Acids (Macronutrients)

They are the people who set the Recommended Dietary Intakes for Vitamins, minerals, protein and more.

And there IS good academic research supporting the idea that getting 25% to 30% of your calories from protein (in contrast to about 15%) better supports weight loss.

Here are 3 references:

Weigle, DS, Breen, PA, Mattys, CC, et al. A high-protein diet induces sustained reductions in appetite, ad libitum caloric intake, and body weight despite compensatory changes in diurnal plasma leptin and ghrelin concentrations. Am J Clin Nutr 2005;82:41-8.

Liedy, HJ, Carnell, NS, Mattes, RD. Higher protein intake preserves lean mass and satiety with weight loss in pre-obese and obese women, Obesity 2007 15(2) 421-9.

Paddon-Jones, D, Westman, E, Mattes, R. Protein, weight management and satiety. AJCN 2008 87 (suppl) 1558S-61S.

I hope that is helpful. I will try to respond to follow-up questions if there are any.

Kind regards

Jerome

powders?utm_source=BariatricPal&utm_medium=Affiliate&utm_campaign=CommentLink" target="_ad" data-id="1" >unjury ® Protein

One more item...

This is from a press release from the National Institutes of Health.

Moderate-Protein diet may beat high-carb diet

MedlinePlus: Moderate-protein diet may beat high-carb diet

It suggests protein in the range of 30% of calories, so for example:

Diet: Grams of Protein:

---- -----------------

1000 87

2000 174

It also emphasizes:

"A higher protein diet is not (just) more protein at dinner, but balanced protein at breakfast and lunch."

SOURCE: Journal of Nutrition, March 2009.

Kind regards

Jerome

unjury ® Protein

My doctor specifically NO DIET, make healthy choices, very small portions but do not make foods off-limits.