gadgetlady

BTW, now that the "debate" portion of this thread seems to be over and real, legitimate questions are being brought up, I would like to say I wouldn't be surprised if there are some reading this thread who have had abortions and have a lot of pain over it. If anyone wants to know about post-abortion counseling, feel free to PM me. If you aren't comfortable doing that, please to go http://www.hopeafterabortion.com/ or http://www.abortionrecoverycounseling.com/Page.html.

I should add: I have two very good friends, both of whom have three children. One has three girls and one has three boys. They are both pro-life now. They both (long after their abortions) desperately wanted children of both genders. The one with three girls won't talk about abortion at all because he believes he and his wife killed their only boy, and discussing it makes him too sad (I don't know if they knew the baby was a boy at the time of the abortion or not; I've never asked). The one with three boys is a post-abortion counselor and grieves the loss of her daughter; again, I don't know if she knows for sure the baby was female [i didn't want to cause her more pain by asking about it]).

Sadly, it's just the cost. Very little, if any, education is involved. If you read anything about women who have chosen abortion and regret their choice, you will hear over and over that they had no idea what they were doing. Many women are so conflicted over their decision that they change their minds immediately after the abortion, at which point it's too late. A psychological evaluation or counseling is not required in all clinics (some provide it, or at least the appearance of it, but not all do). It is not difficult to get a woman who's conflicted about her pregnancy, at the most emotional time in her life, to sign on the dotted line and get her "problem" "taken care of". The saddest situation is when a woman can't get pregnant in the future because of a previous abortion (one of the complications of some types of procedures is future infertility or an increased miscarriage rate).

I think we'd see a decrease. I do believe that some abortions would continue to occur, but I think the decrease would be dramatic. It is also the case that clinical abortions are not always done in safe medical surroundings. The abortion industry is less regulated than veterinary clinics and the conditions in said clinics are often deplorable. (I'm sure all of you are going to get your hackles up again about how this is a right-wing fallacy; lmk if you want me to cite examples.) Let's face it; the implements of abortion won't disappear if abortion is illegal. Nor will the chemical combinations used to abort. I believe it will still happen in the significantly decreased numbers as I mentioned, but I also believe it will be just as "safe" (for the mother of course; it's never safe for the baby) as it is now. (BTW, I don't believe it's safe for the mother either. The complications that come with abortion are numerous and significant.) In case you didn't know, the numbers of self-induced abortions reported prior to Roe v. Wade was fabricated. Bernard Nathanson, a former abortionist and one of the founders of NARAL (in other words, not a right-wing fanatic but someone with credentials in this matter), indicates in http://www.aboutabortions.com/Confess.html: We aroused enough sympathy to sell our program of permissive abortion by fabricating the number of illegal abortions done annually in the U.S. The actual figure was approaching 100,000 but the figure we gave to the media repeatedly was 1,000,000. Repeating the big lie often enough convinces the public. The number of women dying from illegal abortions was around 200-250 annually. The figure we constantly fed to the media was 10,000. These false figures took root in the consciousness of Americans convincing many that we needed to crack the abortion law. Another myth we fed to the public through the media was that legalising abortion would only mean that the abortions taking place illegally would then be done legally. In fact, of course, abortion is now being used as a primary method of birth control in the U.S. and the annual number of abortions has increased by 1500% since legalisation.

Thank you, Wheetsin, for your coherent and consistent POV. From the big brou-ha-ha about this whole thing, I have been left with the belief that many of your fellow believers, or at least those that have posted on this thread, have more of a problem with abortion than they will admit to.

This is a joke, right? I AM NOT FOCUSING ON IT! I said it once, early on, and was surprised when several other people (at least 5) brought it up later. I really didn't think this would be a big deal for everyone who supports abortion. All I've been doing since then is defending the fact that these people exist and also defending my right to bring it up. That being said, I'm done with it. I think I've demonstrated that those people exist (since you all are now screaming about why I brought it up rather than that it's ludicrous, ridiculous, and not true), so now it's up to you to examine your consciences and figure out why you have a problem with the particular reasons why a woman might exercise her "right" to have an abortion.

So I had no right to post an opinion that I've read because you think it's repugnant (of course, I still don't have a reason why you think it's repugnant)? Once again, I NEVER said that everyone who believes in abortion believes that women should have one just for the experience. I was responding to a SPECIFIC claim that no one wants to have one. And that's just not true. For the record, though, since you all have pushed me to think about and research this, it's made me wonder why the heck you all DON'T believe women should be allowed to have an abortion for whatever reason they damn well choose. My body, my choice, after all. Who the heck are you to judge women who want to have the experience? BTW, after the book reference on "The Sacrament of Abortion", do you still want me to find a specific quote from someone else who advocates that position? Or do you believe me yet?

Very cool. It will be good for both of you to be experiencing the same things, and a great built-in support system!

Thank you. I didn't keep bringing it up. I was simply defending myself after everyone ELSE kept bringing it up.

Congratulations and blessings to you, 396power! When is your wife being banded?

Finally, a consistent position. Everyone else who is in favor of abortion remaining legal should listen to you do on this, because for everyone to be jumping up and down and waving their arms about how ridiculous it was for me to point out the fact that some women advocate abortion as a rite of passage simply tells me that they're NOT OK with the reality of what abortion is. If they were OK, they couldn't care. BTW, I wasn't citing the fact that some women might choose to have an abortion as a rite of passage as an argument to outlaw abortion. I was answering a specific claim that no one ever wants to have an abortion.

Talk about putting words in my mouth! I didn't say or even IMPLY that ALL feminists believe it. I said there are some who advocate it. You jumped to the conclusion that I believe all feminists have wacky ideas and/or that the idea that this particular feminist was proposing was wacky. BTW, there are some wacky Christians, or so-called Christians, out there. I don't deny it. Sometimes I cringe at what some of them do.

I don't understand the hot button here! Why are you all judging the author who said women should get abortions as a rite of passage? I did not say this. Someone else said it. WHY SHOULD YOU CARE WHY WOMEN GET ABORTIONS? If there's nothing wrong with abortion and it should be legal for any reason at any time during pregnancy, who the heck cares why someone chooses to do it? (or is it that you all, deep down, know there is something just a bit "off" about the procedure and this offends your sensibilities?)

I don't see any hypocrisy. I asked why "you" (generic) care because many are presenting abortion is a morally neutral issue. Why should it matter if women do it for dire situations or because they want to see what it feels like? That's what I meant by "why should you care?"

Anyone care to comment on the book by Ginette Paris called "The Sacrament of Abortion"? Ginette is a feminist and New Age writer (and perhaps also a cartoon character? I don't know) who published the book in 1992, not 40 years ago. The book I read wasn't this one, because the one I'm citing was from the late '80's (not "40" years ago).

I'll do this in one fell swoop. Nat Hentoff, a famous liberal athiest writer for the Village Voice, is a prominent athiest, liberal, pro-lifer. I didn't say women were lining up to get abortions as a rite of passage. I was saying that some feminists believe it. I don't think it happens a lot, but I was responding to a specific claim that no one ever wants to get an abortion. Sorry, but that's just wrong, and I have a right to point it out. I'm amazed that that statement is getting everyone up in arms. Why should you care? Why would I be embarrassed to say I've read in feminist literature that fact? I didn't WRITE it; I just read it. And since it was a very serious book, I believe the person writing it. She wasn't a cartoon character. She was a real person.

Clearly you do NOT get it. I don't think the state should decide individual's rights. I think the state should PROTECT individual rights. I am a libertarian at heart. I believe in freedom in many areas where others would cringe. But at the core of all of my beliefs is that everyone has the right to do whatever he or she wants with his or her body. And in the case of abortion, no one asked the baby. If you don't want to hear what I have to say, you can ignore me or choose not to read this thread. That's your individual right.

I don't want to own you. So from your statement, then, you're against abortion after 21 or 22 weeks (viability)? Huh? I don't think it's my job to raise your child. I think it's your job to raise your child, or to place your child with another family if you don't care to raise him. That doesn't make them right. Well, it's going to be hard for me to find it because I read it in feminist literature about 20 years ago. Not in pro-life propaganda, but in a feminist book. I will look for it on the internet, though, because I'm sure you don't trust me that I really did read it. BTW, why is it horrible? If abortion is a woman's right and not a bad action, why does it matter if people deliberately get pregnant and abort as a rite of passage?

The resources set up by pro-lifers to assist pregnant women abound. The quantity of organizations set up to assist women with unplanned pregnancies, including adoption options, homes set up for women in crises, free counseling, and many others is huge. The quantity of Crisis Pregnancy Centers well outnumbers the quantity of abortion clinics. Just because the physical act of dismembering a baby in utero disgusts us doesn't mean we don't have compassion for the women who feel their situation is so dire that they must resort to abortion. The first trimester of pregnancy, when most women abort, is the most hormonal time of a woman's life. Couple that with a society that tells women they can "get rid of the problem" with no ill after-effects and an abortion industry that doesn't inform women about fetal development and the nature of the procedure they will be going through, and it's no wonder the quantity of abortions is so high. Most people are ignorant about fetal development facts, as they are also about what the abortion procedure is. And, btw, the current ban on partial-birth abortion includes sanctions for doctors who perform it, not women who receive it.

I'm happy to leave you and your life alone. Do whatever you want. Smoke, drink, take drugs, commit suicide, become a prostitute, have an affair, get a divorce, authorize someone to take you off life support when you're sick, whatever. Those are all decisions that you have a right to make with your own life. When another person's body is involved, however, that's where I draw the line. And in the case of abortion, another person's body is involved.

I'm sorry I come across that way, but it's difficult on a chat board to determine someone's compassion. I am very strong on this issue because I abhor the deliberate dismembering of innocent children. That is not to say I don't know women who have had abortions -- in fact, I have several very dear friends who have (and are now suffering because of it). I will never bend on this issue, but that doesn't mean I don't care for or about those who have been through it. I have helped women for years through this decision and after their decisions.

I will find some studies on it later and post them. Don't judge me. Maybe I have been in the position before. You don't know. I'm not advocating judgment of a personal action which affects no one but oneself. I'm advocating a law against killing people. There's a big difference. If you believe we shouldn't judge anyone, then there should be no laws at all.

My apologies, and you are absolutely right. I misplaced the decimal point in my calculation (and I was a math minor in college; I'm so embarrassed!). And while the numbers are much smaller, I'm sure if there was something else killing 1168 babies per year, people would be screaming bloody murder.

Such a teeny, tiny number. Not, of course, teeny tiny when you multiply it by 4,000 abortions a day and 365 days a year. 320 a day. 116,800 a year. That's a massacre, really. Of viable babies.

LOL! Yeah, uh, no.