gadgetlady

TommyO, I just want to say that I very much appreciate your last few posts. I really enjoy being able to discuss things on an intellectual level with you, rather than on a sarcastic, personal attack level.

LOL! Thank you for using my name directly . I know some of the arguments, stories, articles, etc. may be tiresome, but not everyone has thought about and/or heard all of them. I know you can skip what's boring, but then some things might be of interest -- like the Feminists for Life organization. I know that there are people who stand firmly on opposite sides of this issue, but I also believe that minds can be changed. There are, for example, numerous former clinic workers and abortionists who are now pro-life. I can't think of anyone who might be more in favor of abortion than a person who performed them, and yet if these people can change their minds, I believe anyone can. I also know there are people who haven't really thought a lot about the issue, and for those people the "same old" arguments are important because it is only through knowledge that we can form an educated opinion. I do want to say that I am truly sorry for the trials you've experienced in your life with regard to childbearing. I don't remember if you told us before that you had an abortion when you were younger and then had trouble conceiving (I remember that you had trouble conceiving but I don't remember the abortion part), but I know the journey has been difficult and I'm sorry.

Well, the fact that 1/3 of unborn babies are killed by abortion isn't hypothetical. Knowing whether one of them is an "Einstein" is and will remain unknowable because once you kill someone you never know what their future potential might have been. What is NOT hypothetical is it's pretty likely that we've exterminated some children who would have made major advancements in this world. Have those advancements been made by others instead? That again goes back to the question of whether God/nature/natural selection/random chance/whatever-you-want-to-call-it would have caused another Einstein to be created and make the discoveries that Einstein did had he, the actual Einstein, not been born.

I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts. I was introduced to the organization in the 1980's and it's had some very well known spokeswomen.

Hypotheticals are important. Yes, Einstein was born and that can't be changed by our hypotheticals. But currently we're killing one out of every three babies in utero in the US -- how many more Einsteins have we killed? THAT's the important question. The reason I phrased the question to my dh in terms of Einstein is because Einstein is a known quantity. IF there is/was a "modern Einstein", he has/had a roughly 33% chance of never being born. And if we believe that it's acceptable to kill the unborn simply because they have a handicap we think would make their lives unacceptable, we lose the opportunity to have the blessings of a Helen Keller in our world. I know some of you out there will say, "Yes, but there are things like miscarriages and failure to implant" -- this is true, but there's a big difference between accidental and/or natural death and intentional death. Furthermore, "abortion is legal", yes, but if we never attempted to challenge the status quo, we in America would still be British colonies. Are you saying that if/when "abortion is illegal", you will accept it as the law and move on?

I agree, BandedMom. We do women such a disservice when we tell them the best way to handle their unexpected motherhood is to kill their children. We can do so much better than that. Are you familiar with the group "Feminists for Life"? Feminists for Life - Women Deserve Better How funny that you mention this. I was literally discussing this same topic with my husband last night. Our homeschool curriculum is covering inventors, and I asked my dh if he thought if Einstein hadn't been born, would we have another Einstein, or would everything he discovered & researched have taken years and years longer to progress -- or not happened at all? The argument that by aborting children we are equally killing off geniuses as well as evil people doesn't hold water, because we have laws in place to control evil. We don't have any mechanism to breed genius.

I apologize for retaliating to BJean's addressing me as "hon" by also responding to her twice as "hon", sarcastically.

I don't know better than that. I've never seen any data to back up what you're claiming. I've seen opinions, but never data. I don't believe it exists. I didn't believe it existed before today, and now more than ever I don't believe it exists. I am very open to looking at whatever data, studies, and statistics there are on the subject, but I just don't believe they're there.

(an hour and a half later . . .) In other words, hon, there are no data to support your position.

In other words, hon, there are no data to support your position.

On WHAT? LOL! I asked for your sources for the statement that pregnant mothers who don't want to be pregnant will choose one of 3 options: self-abortion, illegal abortion, or suicide. And you say nothing but "I rest my case"? A LIST OF MAJOR PSYCHOLOGICAL SEQUELAE OF ABORTION REQUIREMENT OF PSYCHOLOGICAL TREATMENT: In a study of post-abortion patients only 8 weeks after their abortion, researchers found that 44% complained of nervous disorders, 36% had experienced sleep disturbances, 31% had regrets about their decision, and 11% had been prescribed psychotropic medicine by their family doctor. (2) A 5 year retrospective study in two Canadian provinces found significantly greater use of medical and psychiatric services among aborted women. Most significant was the finding that 25% of aborted women made visits to psychiatrists as compared to 3% of the control group. (3) Women who have had abortions are significantly more likely than others to subsequently require admission to a psychiatric hospital. At especially high risk are teenagers, separated or divorced women, and women with a history of more than one abortion. (4) The sources are voluminous. See also: THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION In the 1960's, when abortions were available only for "therapeutic" reasons, it was not uncommon for persons with the means and know-how to obtain an abortion on psychiatric grounds. In some states, all that was necessary was to find an agreeable psychiatrist willing to diagnose every woman with a problem pregnancy as "suicidal." Yet all the studies done on this issue show that pregnancy is actually correlated with a dramatic decreased rate of suicide compared to non-pregnant women. This has led some psychiatrists to suggest that pregnancy somehow serves a psychologically protective role. The presence of another person to "live for" appears to reduce the suicidal impulses of a mentally disturbed or deeply depressed woman.(1) Although pregnancy weakens suicidal impulses, there is strong evidence that abortion dramatically increases the risk of suicide. According to a 1986 study by researchers at the University of Minnesota, a teenage girl is 10 times more likely to attempt suicide if she has had an abortion in the last six months than is a comparable teenage girl who has not had an abortion.(2) Other studies have found similar statistical significance between a history of abortion and suicide attempts among adults. Thus, the actual data suggests that abortion is far more likely to drive an unstable woman to suicide than is pregnancy and childbirth. This abortion/suicide link is well known among professionals who counsel suicidal persons. For example, Meta Uchtman, director of the Cincinnati chapter of Suiciders Anonymous, reported that in a 35 month period her group worked with 4000 women, of whom 1800 or more had abortions. Of those who had abortions, 1400 were between the ages of 15 and 24, the age group with the fastest growing suicide rate in the country.

Can you please share your sources? It's a pretty broad statement: essentially, "women who don't want to be pregnant and can't get abortions try for illegal abortions, try to self-abort, or commit suicide." And yet, there hasn't been a spike in either direction in the suicide rate (for women) since 1973 when abortion was decriminalized.

Except that: The suicide rate associated with birth was significantly lower (5.9) and the rates associated with miscarriage (18.1) and induced abortion (34.7) were significantly higher than in the population.

Really? Did you read it carefully? Women who "terminated" a pregnancy had nearly a 500 percent greater suicide risk in the twelve months after compared to women who carried to term. and Conclusions- The increased risk of suicide after an induced abortion indicates either common risk factors for both or harmful affects of induced abortion on mental health. Yeah, because Bernard Nathanson was only credible when he was pro-abortion. As soon as he stopped performing abortions and became pro-life, he lost all credibility.

Dr. Bernard Nathanson, co-founder of NARAL and former abortionist -- who is now pro-life, says this (found at Confession Of An Ex-Abortionist By Dr. Bernard Nathanson, M.D., Obstetrician and Gynecologist (ObGyn), a clinical associate professor of obstetrics and gynecology, testing member American Bioethics Advisory Commission. Abortion providers, doctors and -- the whole thing is good reading, BTW) We persuaded the media that the cause of permissive abortion was a liberal Enlightened, sophisticated one. Knowing that if a true poll were taken, we would be soundly defeated, we simply fabricated the results of fictional polls. We announced to the media that we had taken polls and that 60% of Americans were in favour of permissive abortion. This is the tactic of the self-fulfilling lie. Few people care to be in the minority. We aroused enough sympathy to sell our program of permissive abortion by fabricating the number of illegal abortions done annually in the U.S. The actual figure was approaching 100,000 but the figure we gave to the media repeatedly was 1,000,000. Repeating the big lie often enough convinces the public. The number of women dying from illegal abortions was around 200-250 annually. The figure we constantly fed to the media was 10,000. These false figures took root in the consciousness of Americans convincing many that we needed to crack the abortion law. Another myth we fed to the public through the media was that legalising abortion would only mean that the abortions taking place illegally would then be done legally. In fact, of course, abortion is now being used as a primary method of birth control in the U.S. and the annual number of abortions has increased by 1500% since legalisation.

From Lifecall: Suicide Linked to Abortion (yes, a pro-life website, but the study was not from a pro-life organization): Many believe that since induced abortion "relieves high stress in a woman's life", induced abortion would likely reduce suicide risk. The actual reality was was reported on December 7, 1996 in the very prestigious British Medical Journal. Women who "terminated" a pregnancy had nearly a 500 percent greater suicide risk in the twelve months after compared to women who carried to term. Finnish Study of Suicide Risk and Induced Abortion [Abstract:] Suicides after pregnancy in Finland, 1987-1994: register linkage study Mika Gissler, Elina Hemminki, Jouko Lonnqvist; British Medical Journal, 1996;313: 1431-1434 [Results from the abstract section] Results- There were 73 suicides associated with pregnancy, representing 5.4% of all suicides in women in this age group [15-49 years]. The mean annual suicide rate was 11.3 per 100 000. The suicide rate associated with birth was significantly lower (5.9) and the rates associated with miscarriage (18.1) and induced abortion (34.7) were significantly higher than in the population. The risk associated with birth was higher among teenagers and that associated with abortion was increased in all age groups. Women who had committed a suicide tended to come from lower social classes and were more likely to be unmarried than other women who had had a completed pregnancy. Conclusions- The increased risk of suicide after an induced abortion indicates either common risk factors for both or harmful affects of induced abortion on mental health.

I finally had an evening free with my dh, and we saw the movie. All I can say right now is "WOW!" I feel . . . shellshocked. I strongly recommend seeing it, regardless of what side of the fence . . . wall . . . you sit. It is not what I expected it to be AT ALL. It was just astounding.

So you believe abortion should be illegal after viability? Which it should. But what I don't get is why it doesn't affect your philosophy that the unborn aren't human or deserving of life. Why is showing pictures and discussing the gruesomeness of dismembering unborn babies crossing a line? It's reality. It happens, every day. I am not insensitive to the plight of mothers who don't want to be mothers. I am, however, steadfast in my belief that it is never OK to kill people to further our own personal wishes and desires. The reality is that these mothers have one choice only: a live baby or a dead baby.

If you're so sensitive, why can't you even possibly admit that killing unborn babies after viability might be wrong? It amazes me that you can look at the facts and the reality of what abortion is, that you can know there are children out there (and grown adults) who have survived abortion attempts while in utero, that you can look at (or be so "sensitive" that you refuse to look at) the little body parts of dismembered babies, and yet still stand up and shout from the rooftops that abortion is just another medical procedure and it's perfectly OK.

No, I didn't assume the worst about your DIL and son. I assumed they had medical complications that weren't related to drugs. It seemed like you didn't really care one way or the other.

I was just reading this to my dh and I said, "I wonder how a person gets to a place where they're so pro-abortion that reading about aborted babies who survive the procedure doesn't affect them." Its guidelines say that babies aborted after more than 21 weeks and six days of gestation should have their hearts stopped by an injection of potassium chloride before being delivered. So that way you you don't get all that pesky crying when they survive.

It's just priceless that the term "botched" here means "failure to kill". It appears you would have preferred that they kill your grandchildren? "Abort and 'start over'" -- isn't that just a perfect description for a scenario where we view human beings as disposable? If we didn't make a good dinner, we can just toss it and start over. If we didn't wallpaper the room right, we can just tear it down and start over. If our children aren't or might not be perfect, we can just kill them and start over. We don't "own" our children, and if we want to or try to kill them, the state has the right to intervene. As they do on a daily basis when they take children out of the care of their biological parents and put them in foster care. The reasoning is precisely because they are not owned entities with whom we have a right to do whatever we want -- including dismemberment.

You can express grief over hearing about it, but you can't deny that it happens. If you want to talk about grief, imagine the grief the poor babies who survive the abortion feel -- especially when they grow up (IF they grow up) and learn that their mother tried to kill them. Your grief at hearing about it pales in comparison.

I just read this article -- even though it's old -- very potent stuff out of the UK: Fifty babies a year are alive after abortion - Times Online A few excerpts -- but the entire article is worth reading! A GOVERNMENT agency is launching an inquiry into doctors’ reports that up to 50 babies a year are born alive after botched National Health Service abortions. Its guidelines say that babies aborted after more than 21 weeks and six days of gestation should have their hearts stopped by an injection of potassium chloride before being delivered. In practice, few doctors are willing or able to perform the delicate procedure. “They can be born breathing and crying at 19 weeks’ gestation,” he said. “I am not anti-abortion, but as far as I am concerned this is sub-standard medicine.” The number of terminations carried out in the 18th week of pregnancy or later has risen from 5,166 in 1994 to 7,432 last year. The issue will be highlighted by Gianna Jessen, 28, who survived an attempt to abort her. She is to speak at a parliamentary meeting on December 6 organised by the Alive and Kicking campaign, which is lobbying for a reduction of the abortion limit to 18 weeks. Jessen, a musician from Nashville, Tennessee, was left with cerebral palsy but is to run in the London marathon next April to raise funds for fellow sufferers. “If abortion is about women’s rights, then what were my rights?” she asked.

Thanks for your perspective on this, luluc. Would you say the donating process was easy? Or did you have to jump through hoops to do it? Or pay anything to do it? I'm really curious about this now, because it was always my impression that donating was relatively easy and there were plenty of couples to accept them. I haven't known any Christians that are against in vitro either -- or any that think sex is only for procreation, which is the other thing that was said in the same post.