K I S S

[summerset 5,261]

On 1.10.2018 at 7:13 PM, Sleeved36 said:

Sometimes when people describe the things they do it starts to sound like disordered eating, not new healthy habits.

This. And what's very interesting is: other users applaud them on their behavior, even envy them.

[summerset 5,261]

5 hours ago, GreenTealael said:

Vice Versa for simplified/ relaxed/looser lifestyles? Constant anxiety over regain? Or not worried because you have it at a nice ebb and flow?

It took awhile for that worry to go away. I needed proof that I don't need to adhere to e. g. tracking and daily/weekly weighing to prevent weight gain but once I had proof... well, life feels more relaxed in the food/weight/exercise section. It's actually quite nice not to worry about how many calories you might burn when doing yoga or going out for a bike ride.

Not having a bad conscience when eating certain foods because they're "bad" or skipping an exercise session because you feel like collapsing at your door after a hard work day and not calculating how much you're "allowed" to eat for dinner now because you didn't work out - this is priceless and liberating.

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I didnt want this to be a this vs that thread

But it is and it was to be expected.

[summerset 5,261]

3 hours ago, GreenTealael said:

I just want to find the most information I can and maybe leave record of it on the site for others. I truly value the exchange of information this site provides.

Thing is, quite a few people change gears after a couple of years. If they happen to hang around for a time span of several years (I'm talking 5 or more years, even more than 10 years) you can notice how people might change their point of view on several things. Even if they were gone in between for a year or two, some hang around for quite a long time but they're very, very rare. Some gained, some gained significant, some had revisions out of various reasons, some maintained, some struggle with a change of eating disorder...

Typical life changers seem to be new partners, having kids, transitioning from university to working, changing over from the working force into retirement. These "big things", you know.

[GreenTealael 24,850]

28 minutes ago, summerset said:

Thing is, quite a few people change gears after a couple of years. If they happen to hang around for a time span of several years (I'm talking 5 or more years, even more than 10 years) you can notice how people might change their point of view on several things. Even if they were gone in between for a year or two, some hang around for quite a long time but they're very, very rare. Some gained, some gained significant, some had revisions out of various reasons, some maintained, some struggle with a change of eating disorder...

Typical life changers seem to be new partners, having kids, transitioning from university to working, changing over from the working force into retirement. These "big things", you know.

I don't mind, I want all the information. Good and bad changes.

[summerset 5,261]

4 minutes ago, GreenTealael said:

I don't mind, I want all the information. Good and bad changes.

Not really sure what to write here.

Thing is there is quite a lot of talk about complications from time to time, quite a few people converted from band to bypass, either because of regain or reflux or migration or all these things. Same with the sleeve. Lots of reflux talk from time to time. Everything seems to come in waves somehow. The board is quite litte, not a lot of people writing. The high times of German WLS boards seem to be gone with the wind since a whole while.

However, on the German board I sometimes read the dynamic is about the same as here. A lot of judgment about regain, usually coming from successfully losing people a few months out. A lot of fear about regain, the usual struggles with the little gains and the talk about food and exercise and how to "stay motivated in harder times". The everlasting little fights between the "clean eaters" and the "more relaxed eaters". The exercise freaks and the couch potatoes. How to cope with hunger? How to cope with appetite or emotional eating?

[GreenTealael 24,850]

12 minutes ago, summerset said:

Not really sure what to write here.

Thing is there is quite a lot of talk about complications from time to time, quite a few people converted from band to bypass, either because of regain or reflux or migration or all these things. Same with the sleeve. Lots of reflux talk from time to time. Everything seems to come in waves somehow. The board is quite litte, not a lot of people writing. The high times of German WLS boards seem to be gone with the wind since a whole while.

However, on the German board I sometimes read the dynamic is about the same as here. A lot of judgment about regain, usually coming from successfully losing people a few months out. A lot of fear about regain, the usual struggles with the little gains and the talk about food and exercise and how to "stay motivated in harder times". The everlasting little fights between the "clean eaters" and the "more relaxed eaters". The exercise freaks and the couch potatoes. How to cope with hunger? How to cope with appetite or emotional eating?

Oh I didn't realize you were in Germany!

Well I'm definitely a closer to couch potato but definitely not an emotional eater. I'm also busy with life and this can't be my everlasting focus so want the simplest ways to maintain (sanity) lol because I have a lot of other thing I have to focus on coming up. I promised myself I was only going to give this 1 hard solid dedicated year of focus then it needed to be easy peasy so I'm looking for short cuts...

[summerset 5,261]

I personally think that you need to put some work into the whole thing before you can relax, e. g. you might have to work on a certain point of view first to make maintenance easier in the long run (or more "effortless" so to say). I'm struggling a bit to find an example regarding this as these things are highly individual but I have to think about a conversation I had today:

It's cold and rainy at the moment. I still go to work by bike, so does a colleague of mine. All the nice weather cyclists in our department stopped going by bike. They say "Oh, it's so cold and rainy - we rather go by car or bus or tram." We say: "Oh, we don't want to be crammed into a tram or bus with lots of people in wet coats and wet umbrellas and we don't want to endure the stop-and-go traffic sitting in the car and hunting for a parking lot. Going by bike is the fastest way to get from home to work at rush hour."

The problem here is: you really seem to have to believe the things you think about something so telling yourself that plain green salad with cucumber infused Water is the yummiest thing in the world and tracking every morsel of food for the rest of your life on MFP is the leisure time activity to do might not work.

[summerset 5,261]

21 hours ago, GreenTealael said:

I don't mind, I want all the information. Good and bad changes.

Not sure what more information I'm able to provide. In the end it's just some thoughts and opinions based on personal experience.

As for changes I believe that when hard times are coming your way you need your energy for something different than the food/exercise/self-control world. And there seems to be a lot of proof that this is true. Just look at the posts on this board in which people talk about regain and when the regain started to happen. There usually seems to be a stressful event that started the "old habits" again.

I also believe that a lot boils down to trust issues in the end.

Do you trust yourself with food now? Do you think that you can e. g. ever eat something "bad" at a party or bring "bad" food home and eat it without blowing the whole WLS thing because you're afraid that you will want MORE tomorrow, next week, next month? Do you trust yourself enough that you will take up exercising again after you paused for a week or two because you had a cold? Do you think that without an arbitrary set of strict rules somebody else set for you, you will gain back all the weight and more within the blink of an eye?

It might raise your heart rate significantly if you only think about that someone actually suggested that you should "trust yourself" when it comes to issues that have something to do with your body after the whole world told you for decades that you "cannot be trusted". It will definitely throw you out of your comfort zone to trust yourself with body/food issues.

Learning to have a certain level of trust in yourself takes work and a big step out of the comfort zone. It's like beginning a new job and acquiring the new skills needed to do that job properly. However, I firmly hold the opinion that it's worth the hassle.

[FluffyChix 17,409]

Ok, so what you describe is very reasonable and logical--especially in people who are skinny and have that skill set.

But what about people who NEVER learned good food "hygiene/habits" in the first place? Ever. In their life? What about the people who come to the party MO and think that the surgery is gonna do all the work so therefore they never learn new skills, never even re-learn skills. They just depend on the restriction and "only being able to choke down 2 tbsp of food," and so eat all their old crappy foods. And they eat them 3squares x 7 x 365? What happens in 2-5 years when they suddenly can eat a 1/2plate of food as Dr. Weiner hypothesizes and now they've also added back the daily Desserts and booze too?

My point in all of this is absolutely it's about trust. It's about trusting yourself to be responsible and to have a reasonable relationship with food and that takes time to grow. But...not everyone is choosing to also learn these new habits and build trust. What then? What do you say to those people who come back with the same dang problem and are seeking a revision to a stronger surgery because they've had a 20-150lb weight regain? They still have the same eating habits, say they are eating "in moderation," etc? Just curious. Not-honestly NOT-trying to be argumentative or derail this great question by OP.

Edited October 3, 2018 by FluffyChix

[MIZ60 1,291]

Still far from goal but I think about this a lot. I had success 10 years ago losing over 40 pounds and only had about 25 to go to reach my goal. After that I gained 110 pounds in about 8 years....

It started slowly, maybe eating a couple of french fries off husbands plate or "a few" Kettle chips at a party. Then it was the Atkins bars which are candy but somehow seemed acceptable to delusional MIZ. Then maybe a margarita instead of vodka soda when out with friends.

I tell myself every day that there are certain foods and food groups that I will NEVER have again since I know the slippery slope they create. I try to concentrate on mindful eating and learning that I am the only person who determines what goes in my body. So far, for 6 months, I have been successful with this but I know it will be harder as time goes on.

Went to Breakfast last Sunday with a group of 7 biker friends to a small town diner. This place is really good. I ordered my omelette and told the waitress no bread and no potatoes. I asked for a box when she brought my food and ate the amount I wanted and took the rest home. I do not think anyone in the group heard me or noticed. We were having a great day and it is not about my eating or what I could not have.

This is what I know it will take for me to maintain. If I can go 9 years without a cigarette I can go the rest of my life without potatoes, sugar and other things I do not need.

[MargoCL 677]

Just my thoughts as someone who has used a food tracking app for years... I have been successful at weightloss until the last 3 years...

I am most successful when I consistently log my meals. It wasn't until I stopped logging, or keeping accountability of my intake did the weight creep back (Add other medical issues and here we are today).

When I allowed myself to get "slack" I found it hard to get back on track even though I thought my portions were OK.

I think I can say for me personally, keeping myself accountable will be a lifelong chore. But I also look at as, if i have 5 minutes for social media, I have 5 minutes for logging.

I don't log my exercise to allow me to keep ahead of myself with daily kcal goals.

I work with some "healthy" women, they don't always log their food, but rather their exercise.

I think long term, much like our trial and errors here, we have to find what works best for ourselves.

I also know long term, I'll never be able to eat carbs like I once used to. The effects from carbs and gluten are horrid to my body and that's one habit I know I don't want to relive.

[summerset 5,261]

22 hours ago, FluffyChix said:

But what about people who NEVER learned good food "hygiene/habits" in the first place? Ever. In their life?

I never drove a car. Never. Ever in my life. Not for 18 years. And then there was the day when I drove a car for the first time.

I never stented a carotid artery. Never. Ever in my life. Not for 41 years. And then there was the day when I did it for the first time.

So the answer to your question is: If you never learnt good food habits in the fist place - learn to have them now!

This is not about magic! This is about learning new skills by practicing them! Practicing them over and over and over and OVER again, until they feel like second nature to your brain.

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What about the people who come to the party MO and think that the surgery is gonna do all the work so therefore they never learn new skills, never even re-learn skills.

Honestly? Some people have to learn the hard way that this particular way didn't work for them. You can provide help/guidance along the way but in the end people choose their own way and that is not always the way that works out fine.

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But...not everyone is choosing to also learn these new habits and build trust. What then? What do you say to those people who come back with the same dang problem and are seeking a revision to a stronger surgery because they've had a 20-150lb weight regain? They still have the same eating habits, say they are eating "in moderation," etc? Just curious.

Some people need a second chance because they messed up first. If these people are honest with themselves they should realize that they made mistakes along the way and now they have a chance to do it in another way. If they choose to make the same mistakes... well, not everyone will be successful. In the end it's just as simple as that.

What rubs me the wrong way is that so many people seem to come back with a regain after they were quite successful and are on their way to make the same mistakes again, fueled by the "advice" to "go back to basics" and to "try harder". And because they were so successfully losing once they try to do the same thing they did back then - not realizing that they're making the same mistakes by going back to these same old strategies that didn't work in the first place for them.

You're gung-ho about it, you eat low carb/lowfat/keto/lowcalorie/whateverrocksyourboat, you go to the gym five times a week, you follow all these fancy rules, you do this, you do that and more and then... something happens, whatever that something might be for this person and BOOM - things go down the drain.

And what are you going to do then? Trying again to live a lifestyle that's obviously not going to make you happy? Or are you taking a leap of faith and try something different?