Let the Joyous news be spread: New Jersey votes yes on Gay civil union!

[Sunta 4]

The bible is not the only religious doctrine that people in the United States and elsewhere in the world, follow. As someone pointed out, each person who practices a religion thinks that theirs is the right one. How could anyone really ever know which is true and which is not?

I went to Catholic School and they told me that it was the "one true" religion, and I remember thinking "but... but.. there's a big problem here, and that is that Buddists think that their religion is the true one and Hindus think that theirs is, and Jews think that theirs is, and so on and so forth." So even as a child I knew that it would be literally impossible to say that *one* religion is the "real true one".

Just saying "it's in the bible" is not a good argument, because how would I know the bible is any different from the koran, or the Bhagavad gita? They don't mention anything about Christ, and you know, there are waaaay way more people on this earth that believe something else, than all the Christians on the planet. (You can check the encyclopedia if you don't believe me).

Just as ferverntly as Christians are 100% convinced that the bible is the one true religious doctrine, so are those of other faiths convinced that their doctrines are the "one true" doctrine. Does anyone see how this could create a situtation in which it would be totally impossible to know which (if any) are the "one true" religion?

Religion is entirely irrelevant when discussing Gay marriage, because religion is not supposed to govern the state. Nowhere in the contitution does it say anything about the states being run under Christian principals! I don't know who came up with that, but that is just a really horrifying idea! People practice all different religions here, so no one religion can, under the constitution, govern the states.

In closing, I would like to say I just saw the movie "Jesus Camp" and it scared the... bejesus out me!

[Dianechef 3]

Carlene,

I love to read your posts because you are very, very good at your information. You are right on with the history of christianity. There are so many people who to claim to know things but don't always get the facts straight. You always have lots of info to back up your statements & you're right on!!

[vinesqueen 2]

Hurray! Hurray for New Jersey!

If it only had religious overtones then it would be different, but it is a legal contract having to do with property rights. ...

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Can you point out to me where the 10 commandments are? I can not find them in my Bible.

Exodus 20:1-17 Deuteronomy 5:1-22

Exodus 20:1-17 is 17 verses. How do you get 10 commandments out of 17 verses?

Deuteronomy 5:1-22 is 22 verses. How do you get 10 commandments out of 22 verses?

Are the commandments longer in Deuteronomy than in Exodus?

I don't see 10 commandments in either Exodus or Deuteronomy.

And I don't see any commandments about same sex unions.

[Carlene 12]

Carlene,

I love to read your posts because you are very, very good at your information. You are right on with the history of christianity. There are so many people who to claim to know things but don't always get the facts straight. You always have lots of info to back up your statements & you're right on!!

Diane...you are so nice. I'm not always right, but I try to be accurate.

[KariK 0]

Exodus 20:1-17 is 17 verses. How do you get 10 commandments out of 17 verses?

Deuteronomy 5:1-22 is 22 verses. How do you get 10 commandments out of 22 verses?

Are the commandments longer in Deuteronomy than in Exodus?

I don't see 10 commandments in either Exodus or Deuteronomy.

And I don't see any commandments about same sex unions.

Some commandments are more wordy than others, obviously, and take more verses to make clear what God's intention is. Do you propose that God should have used less wordage? LOL maybe instead of calling them the Ten Commandments they should be called the Ten Paragraphs? Would that make more sense to you? They aren't called the Ten Sentences or the Ten Paragraphs or the Ten Verses, they are called the Ten Commandments. I don't think there is a limit on how many sentences/verses can make up a commandment. Sorry don't mean to tease you but Im just not getting your logic on this post.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Some commandments are more wordy than others, obviously, and take more verses to make clear what God's intention is. Do you propose that God should have used less wordage? LOL maybe instead of calling them the Ten Commandments they should be called the Ten Paragraphs? Would that make more sense to you? They aren't called the Ten Sentences or the Ten Paragraphs or the Ten Verses, they are called the Ten Commandments. I don't think there is a limit on how many sentences/verses can make up a commandment. Sorry don't mean to tease you but Im just not getting your logic on this post.

Since the 10 commandments are spread between many verses of both Exodus and Deuteronomy, it is obvious (at least to me) that they could have been called 12 or 14 commandments. They are not numbered numbered as commandment one, commandment two, etc.

Why not use the following as Ten Commandments? They are all legitimately from the Bible.

Ten Punishments

(Let's post these in the schoolroom!)

1. Exodus 22:20: He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

2. Leviticus 24:16: And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death.

3. Exodus 31:15: Whosoever doeth any work in the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

4. Exodus 21:15: He that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.

5. Exodus 21:17: He that curseth his father or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

6. Exodus 22:19: Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.

7. Leviticus 20:13: If a man lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death.

8. Leviticus 20:10: And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death.

9. Mark 16:16: He that believeth not, shall be damned.

10. Malachi 2:1-4: And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you. If you will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart to give glory to my name, ... behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces.

It seems like quite a few of our Republican voting bretheren (and sistren too) would go along with #7, but they may have objections to a few of the others.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

There were other tablets that Moses broke which also contained 10 commandments (or so they say):

Exodus

Chapter 34

1 The LORD said to Moses, "Cut two stone tablets like the former, that I may write on them the commandments which were on the former tablets that you broke.

2 Get ready for tomorrow morning, when you are to go up Mount Sinai and there present yourself to me on the top of the mountain.

3 No one shall come up with you, and no one is even to be seen on any part of the mountain; even the flocks and the herds are not to go grazing toward this mountain."

4 Moses then cut two stone tablets like the former, and early the next morning he went up Mount Sinai as the LORD had commanded him, taking along the two stone tablets.

5 Having come down in a cloud, the LORD stood with him there and proclaimed his name, "LORD."

6 Thus the LORD passed before him and cried out, "The LORD, the LORD, a merciful and gracious God, slow to anger and rich in kindness and fidelity,

7 continuing his kindness for a thousand generations, and forgiving wickedness and crime and sin; yet not declaring the guilty guiltless, but punishing children and grandchildren to the third and fourth generation for their fathers' wickedness!"

8 Moses at once bowed down to the ground in worship.

9 Then he said, "If I find favor with you, O Lord, do come along in our company. This is indeed a stiff-necked people; yet pardon our wickedness and sins, and receive us as your own."

10 "Here, then," said the LORD, "is the covenant I will make. Before the eyes of all your people I will work such marvels as have never been wrought in any nation anywhere on earth, so that this people among whom you live may see how awe-inspiring are the deeds which I, the LORD, will do at your side.

11 But you, on your part, must keep the commandments I am giving you today. "I will drive out before you the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites.

12 Take care, therefore, not to make a covenant with these inhabitants of the land that you are to enter; else they will become a snare among you.

13 Tear down their altars; smash their sacred pillars, and cut down their sacred poles.

14 You shall not worship any other god, for the LORD is 'the Jealous One'; a jealous God is he.

15 Do not make a covenant with the inhabitants of that land; else, when they render their wanton worship to their gods and sacrifice to them, one of them may invite you and you may partake of his sacrifice.

16 Neither shall you take their daughters as wives for your sons; otherwise, when their daughters render their wanton worship to their gods, they will make your sons do the same.

17 "You shall not make for yourselves molten gods.

18 "You shall keep the feast of Unleavened bread. For seven days at the prescribed time in the month of Abib you are to eat unleavened bread, as I commanded you; for in the month of Abib you came out of Egypt.

19 "To me belongs every first-born male that opens the womb among all your livestock, whether in the herd or in the flock.

20 The firstling of an ass you shall redeem with one of the flock; if you do not redeem it, you must break its neck. The first-born among your sons you shall redeem. "No one shall appear before me empty-handed.

21 "For six days you may work, but on the seventh day you shall rest; on that day you must rest even during the seasons of plowing and harvesting.

22 "You shall keep the feast of Weeks with the first of the wheat harvest; likewise, the feast at the fruit harvest at the close of the year.

23 Three times a year all your men shall appear before the Lord, the LORD God of Israel.

24 Since I will drive out the nations before you to give you a large territory, there will be no one to covet your land when you go up three times a year to appear before the LORD, your God.

25 "You shall not offer me the blood of sacrifice with leavened bread, nor shall the sacrifice of the Passover feast be kept overnight for the next day.

26 "The choicest first fruits of your soil you shall bring to the house of the LORD, your God. "You shall not boil a kid in its mother's milk."

27 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with them I have made a covenant with you and with Israel."

28 So Moses stayed there with the LORD for forty days and forty nights, without eating any food or drinking any Water, and he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

29 As Moses came down from Mount Sinai with the two tablets of the commandments in his hands, he did not know that the skin of his face had become radiant while he conversed with the LORD.

30 When Aaron, then, and the other Israelites saw Moses and noticed how radiant the skin of his face had become, they were afraid to come near him.

31 Only after Moses called to them did Aaron and all the rulers of the community come back to him. Moses then spoke to them.

32 Later on, all the Israelites came up to him, and he enjoined on them all that the LORD had told him on Mount Sinai.

33 When he finished speaking with them, he put a veil over his face.

34 Whenever Moses entered the presence of the LORD to converse with him, he removed the veil until he came out again. On coming out, he would tell the Israelites all that had been commanded.

35 Then the Israelites would see that the skin of Moses' face was radiant; so he would again put the veil over his face until he went in to converse with the LORD.

Some Hebrew historians* claim that Exodus 34 contains the original 10 Commandments which break down as this:

Second Tables of Stone (Exodus 34)

("the words that were on the first")

1. Thou shalt worship no other god (For the Lord is a jealous god).

2. Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.

3. The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep in the month when the ear is on the corn.

4. All the first-born are mine.

5. Six days shalt thou work, but on the seventh thou shalt rest.

6. Thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, even of the first fruits of the wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.

7. Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread.

8. The fat of my feast shall not remain all night until the morning.

9. The first of the first fruits of thy ground thou shalt bring unto the house of the Lord thy God.

10. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk.

*K. Budde, History of Ancient Hebrew Literature

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Some may now accuse me of Christian bashing or Bible bashing, but that is not my intention. My intention was to show that the Bible has so many contradictory and confusing verses, that to allow anyone to dictate his interpretation of the Bible to our law makers is a recipe for turmoil and havoc.

The Holy Qur'an says (not a word for word quote) that Allah sent down messengers to different groups of people at different times. He sent down Moses to the Israelites, he sent Jesus during the time of the Roman empire, he sent down Noah at the time near the flood and others at other times. If the people listened and followed the lessons that the messenger sent down to them taught, they would live an internal life, but if they denied the lessons of their messenger, they would suffer the eternal fires.

Because I am a Christian, I do not want my government telling me what my minister can preach, nor how he or I should interpret any verse from the "Old Testament" or the "New Testament", but I also do not want my minister telling my government to interfere with the teachings of another church, Mosque or Synagogue.

[KariK 0]

Since the 10 commandments are spread between many verses of both Exodus and Deuteronomy, it is obvious (at least to me) that they could have been called 12 or 14 commandments. They are not numbered numbered as commandment one, commandment two, etc.

Why not use the following as Ten Commandments? They are all legitimately from the Bible.

Ten Punishments

(Let's post these in the schoolroom!)

1. Exodus 22:20: He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

2. Leviticus 24:16: And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death.

3. Exodus 31:15: Whosoever doeth any work in the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

4. Exodus 21:15: He that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.

5. Exodus 21:17: He that curseth his father or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

6. Exodus 22:19: Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.

7. Leviticus 20:13: If a man lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death.

8. Leviticus 20:10: And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death.

9. Mark 16:16: He that believeth not, shall be damned.

10. Malachi 2:1-4: And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you. If you will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart to give glory to my name, ... behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces.

It seems like quite a few of our Republican voting bretheren (and sistren too) would go along with #7, but they may have objections to a few of the others.

Actually I don't think many ppl would go along with TOM's 10 commandments lol. I know I believe in the ones that God made! True the ones in my bible have been translated, but I can only hope that the translation is similar to the real Word. And considering that the wordage is somewhat similar to other translations, well I think it is more accurate than the TOM version lol.

[Carlene 12]

Actually I don't think many ppl would go along with TOM's 10 commandments lol. I know I believe in the ones that God made! True the ones in my bible have been translated, but I can only hope that the translation is similar to the real Word. And considering that the wordage is somewhat similar to other translations, well I think it is more accurate than the TOM version lol.

This isn't "TOM's version", per say. It may be TOM's collection of commandments, but they all came from the Bible. I think his point was, are they less important because they weren't given to us as a matched set, carved (literally) in stone?

Jews recognized a long time ago that placing undo importance on the Ten Commandments, as opposed to other commandments issued by God, was not a good idea, and they no longer refer to them as such.

By the way, TOM, I really like your pick for number 10...

Malachi 2:1-4: And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you. If you will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart to give glory to my name, ... behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces.

I have seen some priests (and TV evangelists) that I would like to see with dung spread upon their faces. Who knows...it might have been a lot better for Tammy Fay's skin than all that makeup!

[Carlene 12]

The fat of my feast shall not remain all night until the morning.

Oh, if only it were so!!!!!!!!!!!!

[lisah25 3]

Some may now accuse me of Christian bashing or Bible bashing, but that is not my intention. My intention was to show that the Bible has so many contradictory and confusing verses, that to allow anyone to dictate his interpretation of the Bible to our law makers is a recipe for turmoil and havoc.

I totally agree with that! I've often wondered if those who want laws based on the bible realize it might not be their interpetation that is selected.

[carol134 0]

I know I said I'm done, but can't resist.

You all can make this as complicated as you want and in the end it is all based on faith. As for my religion I don't know if I have one, as long as you go by the Bible, (meaning the one that was instructed by God) then there is no right or wrong answer. How in the world can anything be bad if you go by what is written in the Bible? Of course we are talking about the New Testament. I know if anyone has actually read the New Testament out of the Bible that was instructed by God then there would be no evil in anything, polictics or otherwise. Some can throw all kinds of kinks into this subject and make it as complex as possible but just think of how you would like to see the world as you live here. In other words no lying, stealing, hate, cheating, abuse, etc....

If you can not find the ten commandments in your bible the one instructed by God, then you are not going to understand any of this anyway. If you do not know what God we are talking about then I am sorry.

Homosexuality is not a choice, I do already know that. Neither is being Fat, but here is something we can all understand, we are all here trying to change it. Some of us were born that way and some of us not, but in anyway you look at it we are trying to change. And that is all God asks you to do. Try to make yourself a better more descent person.

Love is in all of us, some just more than others. Please try to find it in your heart to understand that living through the word of God is not a religion, take religion out of it and read the New Testament (the one instructed by God.) Hopefully if just one person does this and trys to live this way, meaning through the word of God, then all is not lost.

Love and Peace to you all.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Carol, you are trying to confuse me. Right?

You say

How in the world can anything be bad if you go by what is written in the Bible? Of course we are talking about the New Testament...If you can not find the ten commandments in your bible the one instructed by God, then you are not going to understand any of this anyway.

But Exodus and Deuteronomy are in the "Old Testament". :faint: