Non believers

[GypsyQueen 198]

Fiddleman,

I don't agree or disagree, the future will speak for itself. Scouts has been a fabulous program for my sons, one is Eagle, the younger is Star. They are fabulous young men. Of course, no bias there. :-)

The being moral and reverent is still there, the words are just being redefined like marriage. Changing with the times.

Girl Scouts does not have a position, but is an equally rewarding program.

[Fiddleman 4,376]

BTB: see - we can all have a meaningful conversation about a "hot" topic even though we all come from different belief systems. That is not so hard when there is mutual respect. I hope you got the answer you were looking for even though the conversation did digress a bit.

One question I held back from asking due to respect for privacy before in this thread ( you still do not need to answer) is how well does the decision making process go in a marriage that has two people of completely different belief systems? Yes, even non-belief is a belief system (belief of no belief). Anecdotally, I had a relationship back in high school where I was a Christian and my girlfriend was Jewish. Her family was very orthodox Jewish to the point of not acknowledging her as their daughter when she decided to adopt a Judeo-Christian belief system. I did not push her or otherwise directly coerce her into the decision. She came to it on her own. Anyways, the relationship got really got complex due to the family dynamics and it fell part despite apparently having more in common in our belief systems then before. Since then I have always been under the impression that relationships strive the most when there is shared belief system. Your thoughts?

[gamergirl 4,608]

complex and it fell part despite apparently having more in common in our belief systems then before. Since then I have always been under the impression that relationships strive the most when there is shared belief system. Your thoughts.

My firm belief is that relationships do well when people are compatible (complementary, not identical), on four levels. Mental, physical, emotional, and spiritual.

People's definitions and beliefs vary, but when I look at my past relationships that "failed", I see I compromised on one of those dimensions, justifying to myself that no one ever met a perfect match, "but everything else is so good" etc.

This time, I was determined to get a match on all FOUR levels and I have never been happier.

My husband probably cringes and waits for a thunderbolt when my kids and I are so casual about all of it and verge on what others might consider blasphemy, but he too is not into organized religion. So we're not identical, but neither one of us wants to go worship formally once a week, and that is a good enough match to make life together fun.

My two cents, worth about 1 penny today

Curious to hear others' stories too.

Butter if we've completely hijacked your thread beyond repair, let us know and we'll try to go back to where you started. But I will say, I'm enjoying hearing the various views expressed here.

[clk 3,519]

One question I held back from asking due to respect for privacy before in this thread ( you still do not need to answer) is how well does the decision making process go in a marriage that has two people of completely different belief systems? Yes, even non-belief is a belief system (belief of no belief). Anecdotally, I had a relationship back in high school where I was a Christian and my girlfriend was Jewish. Her family was very orthodox Jewish to the point of not acknowledging her as her daughter when she decided to adopt a Judeo-Christian belief system. I did not push her or otherwise directly coerce her into the decision. She came to it on her own. Anyways, the relationship got really got complex and it fell part despite apparently having more in common in our belief systems then before. Since then I have always been under the impression that relationships strive the most when there is shared belief system. Your thoughts.

It can be challenging, especially when one participant bases decision making upon faith. That's just my experience.

My maternal grandmother is the daughter of Holocaust survivors and chose to marry a non-Jewish man. It was horrifying to the family but not the end of the world (after all, she was still Jewish and so by Jewish law her children would be, too) so my mom grew up in a mixed home. It became a big deal on my dad's side when my mom converted and the family on his side was not nice at all. They were not nice to her, but they'd speak to her. Again, she might be part of another religion but in their eyes, was still of Jewish descent so it wasn't the end of the world. But oh, when my dad's sister converted to Catholicism to marry her husband? I think the sky fell in my family. It was awful, and for a long while many people acted as if she had died.

I did not want to marry someone with beliefs that differed from my own because those are the experiences I encountered as a child. Not to mention the raising of children with differing faiths. I know it works for some people but I don't really understand how. My parents refrained from giving us labels and expected us all to choose our own religious paths. I have a Jewish brother, a brother that's working his way towards a conversion to Catholicism (for his wife's sake), a sister that's LDS...and I suppose I'd identify mostly as Jewish but only with the vaguest ties to even the very liberal (in practice) reform movement.

But our faith paths have changed since we got married. My totally non-observant husband has become very observant, indeed. And I've moved from a more moderate standpoint on religion to the loosest of beliefs possible.

So in my case, what I think makes it work is a complete and utter respect for the other person's personal beliefs.

There are things that we quibble about. Keeping Kosher was a big hurdle. I did it for several years but was very unhappy doing it. We now keep Kosher style which is less observant than my husband would like to be and more observant than I appreciate. It's a compromise and it works for us. We take our kids to services fairly regularly, but instead of the much more rigid synagogue he'd attend, we attend a very liberal shul that is accepting of all sorts of people (even tattooed ones like me! It's easier to be gay and Jewish than tattooed and Jewish, I swear!) and that works for me. And the kids LOVE going to services. They love the tradition of Shabbat dinner on Fridays and the holiday festivals. I do not keep shomer shabbos (meaning, we do not observe the strict rules about electricity, travel, etc. on the Sabbath) but I do a big Shabbat dinner every Friday evening and that's our family night - no dates or going out that night. It's family time.

It's respect and love and compromise that makes it work. It works with the right people. I think it would work far less if I ascribed to a religion that viewed itself as the "one true path" and was married to someone that wouldn't be saved. My husband's ex-wife was never Jewish and is LDS (Mormon). It's very stressful for them to navigate that with the kids. She is part of a church that believes only people that follow their rules and believe they're the true religion get to go to heaven, period. That leaves them with, you guessed it, five kids that do not know what on earth to believe. Not one of them is LDS at heart, though. Because how can you have such an all-or-nothing approach when considering people you love, like your father, stepmom and siblings? It doesn't work for them. She hates us for that and it's a big issue even though they're no longer married, so I can see, from this experience, how much more challenging it would be if our beliefs were totally opposite. Things are further complicated when she makes decisions or arguments that are faith based. They can't see eye to eye on these things - and I'm sure it's one of many reasons their marriage didn't work out.

But some people make it work. I mean, I know incredibly liberal people married to hard line conservatives and somehow it works. I am forgiving and understanding of how my husband practices his religion in a way that I don't know I could be about his votes! We agree 110% on the issues that matter to us and are willing to meet in the middle or at least respect (fully respect, not just ignore) each other's differences.

It works.

~Cheri

[clk 3,519]

Butter knows all about hijacks and I bet he doesn't mind.

Right? Good conversation isn't always a point A to B discussion.

~Cheri

[gamergirl 4,608]

Cheri, from an outsider's vantage point, Judaism is lived and practiced very differently to Christianity in this country, at least to my untutored eye. Judaism is not just about a belief expressed occasionally, it's about a lifetime of traditions and spills into everyday life, e.g., Shabbat, Kosher, a different set of holidays, Bar- and Bat-Mitsvah's etc.)

This is more how I grew up seeing religion practiced. You could walk into a person's house in India (at least when I lived there) and eat their food and listen to them talk, and know their religion. This was a culture shock for me in this country because as luck would have it, I first met people who were not what I think what "true" Christians would want us to be. So what I saw was sporadic and conventionally acceptable behavior with re church, but not living life by proscribed values.

My point is being Jewish seems to be about more than going to Temple. And despite the vast diaspora of Jews, you could go to any Passover any where in the world, and still find the rituals familiar. So I can see how not being on the same "page" on that is a lot more difficult than some other religions.

But perhaps I just have out-group homogeneity bias

Despite my devout agnosticism as I call it, had I married a Jewish man, I would have allowed my kids to be raised in that fashion, not because of the religious beliefs, but because of a set of rituals, a way of living, a permanence of sorts, that ultimately leads to a feeling of Community.

And isn't that what it's supposed to be all about? Finding our place, our home amongst others?

[clk 3,519]

Cheri, from an outsider's vantage point, Judaism is lived and practiced very differently to Christianity in this country, at least to my untutored eye. Judaism is not just about a belief expressed occasionally, it's about a lifetime of traditions and spills into everyday life, e.g., Shabbat, kosher, a different set of holidays, Bar- and Bat-Mitsvah's etc.)

My point is being Jewish seems to be about more than going to Temple. And despite the vast diaspora of Jews, you could go to any Passover any where in the world, and still find the rituals familiar. So I can see how not being on the same "page" on that is a lot more difficult than some other religions.

Very excellent points and observations. I've said it before but my non-Jewish friends just don't seem to understand what I'm talking about, but Judaism is very different because it's a complex tie of ritual, observances, belief and culture. And even within Judaism, even in the most orthodox of homes, you'll find that not everyone agrees about the things that they do - I've heard an elderly man with peyos and tzitzit saying that he doesn't know why the rules exist or even agree with them - to him, it's a matter of simple obedience. He does them because he feels God told him to. To any outsider, he's the most observant of the observant Jews, but personally, he questions the whys of religion and what God is and if there even is a God like the rest of us - he just follows the rules while doing it. When I questioned this, I was literally told that he couldn't be sure if it was or wasn't true or if he would or wouldn't be punished for not doing it, but that he couldn't imagine breaking with the traditions his family so proudly followed for generations.

When you're more than distantly Jewish, it does spill over into everything. You know the other Jews around you, even if they're utterly unobservant. You sprinkle your speech with phrases you sometimes forget not everyone understands. And let us not forget the food! food mined from cultures all around the world and made into our own wonderful, comforting rituals. So it's possible to even profess a disbelief in God and still be considered Jewish by the community and even by other non-Jews. You are part of a community - you are family, even if you're the black sheep doing the wrong things.

We have the same problems with fundamental groups vs. liberal practice groups that other religions have, the only difference being that nobody questions if you're Jewish or not. If your mom was Jewish, you're Jewish. Period, end of story. So level of observance is how we separate and divide ourselves. And no matter how you divide, you all read the same religious material - it's a matter of interpretation.

Whereas many Christian groups believe a solid and clearly defined doctrine. Some groups (not all) are entirely exclusive - if you do not believe what they believe and if you don't check off their particular set of boxes for salvation, you are not "saved" and in some cases, not even considered a Christian. My maternal grandfather doesn't believe my sister is Christian. He's Southern Baptist and my sister is LDS. No leeway or meeting in the middle for them!

I enjoy your comments and insight very much and am looking forward to seeing what both Butter and Fiddle have to say later on.

~Cheri

[clk 3,519]

And it has not escaped my attention that I've gone from professing "a belief in something, but I'm not sure what" into claiming Judaism as my community.

It's a complex thing for me. Again, it's not so easy to separate being Jewish from believing in God.

Personal doubt or open-mindedness, even, don't keep me from defining myself as Jewish.

~Cheri

[TwinsMama 483]

One question I held back from asking due to respect for privacy before in this thread ( you still do not need to answer) is how well does the decision making process go in a marriage that has two people of completely different belief systems? Yes, even non-belief is a belief system (belief of no belief).

My husband while Christian like me, is very much different in terms of how he shows/practices faith. While we both pray, I enjoy the community fellowship of church (but boy it has to be the RIGHT one). He on the other hand, could never step in a church again (except a wedding/funeral).

That small (yet big, if that makes sense) difference in us was huge at first. Having children who also...you guessed it, differ in that way has helped our children learn tolerance on such a small level. We are teaching our children that people do not have to worship (or not) the same to be respectful of one another.

We also encourage our kids to learn and read about religion, spirituality, and non-belief for themselves. I've found that by doing that, our kids don't have a "fear" of things different from what they know. Our kids are still quite young, but by their age I had been to Catholic, Jewish, and Muslim places of worship with close friends of the family.

Both my husband and I were raised to respect others and that's our contribution to the next generation...open, respectful citizens.

[LifetimeLoser 208]

Why are we talking about religion on this web site? Thought we were here to support each other and share info regarding WLS.......

Its okay. I didn't realize there were places for such things until a few weeks back. I don't know if I didn't notice or I didn't care to post religious/non-religious things. If you go to the main thread page there are different areas for different topics. Some of those areas have nothing to do with weight loss. There is a rant/rave section, christian section, etc.

[Butterthebean 8,146]

Do I mind? I'm breaking out the jiffy pop and enjoying this thread immensely. I'm so glad it hasn't turned into a flame war (I was going to say holy war but that seems....antagonistic).

Anyway, to answer fiddles question....yes I married the daughter of a fundamentalist southern baptist preacher .....was he ever unhappy! My wife's family was all about the church. FIL preached (he was also the mayor and high school teacher for 30+ years in their tiny town), MIL was/is the church music director and my wife and 3 siblings basically made up the church choir. They were like the white evangelical Jackson 5. There was never a wedding or funeral in which they did not sing...unless it was a rare non church goer. It was ALL about the church for them.

But my wife fell a good ways from the tree...so did one of her sisters. And even though they are both still spiritual people, neither of them feel attached to the dogmatic views that dominated their childhood. They are both very liberal religiously and politically. And they both moved far from home. Not surprisingly, the other 2 siblings are still very conservative and never moved away from the home town area....and still pray and vote much the same way their dad does.

As for me and my wife, I think it took her a minute to accept the fact that I never went to church and never was going to be a believer. But as she got to know me, she realized that I was a moral and principled man regardless of how I spent my Sundays. She's open minded enough to accept that those are the things that are important to her....my lack of belief is just not an issue for her.

When we met she was attending a very liberal church in Houston that she really liked. The kind of place that openly accepted mixed race families and same sex couples....all the things that would have been shunned in her fathers church. And the congregation all shared a similar mindset about the teachings of the bible....that basically it was the spirit of the word, and not the LITERAL words, that were most important. She loved that church but sadly we moved out to a rural area last year and no such liberal churches exist around here. We're hoping to relocate soon, and a good open minded church is one of the first things on her list to find.

As for her family accepting me...they all have come to the same realization she did, that I'm a good man worth having in the family despite my unwillingness to believe....all accept the FIL who still gives me the stinky eye every chance he gets. He's pretty sure I've condemned his daughter to damnation, but he realizes his daughter is way to independent to let him influence who she will or won't marry. And that's his fault caused he raised her that way.

[LifetimeLoser 208]

I like the whole non-label idea. That is sort of where I stand. Sometimes I avoid talking about "religious" things because I don't have it nailed down to exactly what I believe and some people take that to mean either you don't believe in anything or you are open to being preached to. My husband is a die hard atheist...he gets offended when someone says, "god bless you" when he sneezes. I grew up in the church from the time I was a baby. My mom went to bible school and teaches, both my grandfathers were ministers, my grandmother was a minister...it goes on and on. In fact, I can count on one hand how many people I know who do not believe in one omnipotent power.

I am an extremely open minded individual (well I like to think so anyway) who is not phased by many things.

I may not have labeled what I believe, but I do know that I am strong enough in my non-belief where I can not be persuaded to crossover into the believer realm. I believe that as long as you strive to be a good person than you are doing what you can. It is as simple as that for me. Of course, my perception of a "good person" may be different than others, but that is okay by me because it is my belief and no body else's. I believe those that have extreme faith (in whatever...it could be yourself) do not have to try and convert others. I believe that some people need organized religion. It does provide many benefits for those looking to fulfill certain aspects of his or her life. Others find answers elsewhere. There are answers everywhere.

You are right! Just because one doesn't have faith in god doesn't mean he or she doesn't have faith. I have faith in myself. Some people give thanks to god for his weight loss and give praise to him. I have faith in myself that I put the work in to get my results.

[gamergirl 4,608]

This evangelism and desire to convert thing was new for me. I don't even know if its possible for people to convert to being Hindus. I think you pretty much have to be born one. Same thing Muslims or Sikhs back home. When I got here, I was and looked fresh off the boat (figuratively), and a bunch of people wanted to be the first to convert me.

Honestly it is SUCH a cultural faux pas where I come from. You would never tell a person of a different religion to convert.

You might smirk and think you're much better off than them, but that's allowed

[Butterthebean 8,146]

My wife....the believer but also a doctor....sent me this....

[kwigillingok 177]

It's funny you mention the Boy Scouts, Lynda. My sons have been Scouting for most of their lives, and it has thankfully not revolved around religion. But I did feel weird about it because we are not church goers and the whole Duty to God certainly is hard to ignore. I sent my boys to religious class just in case to feel like they complied and so they could make up their own minds.

in any case, they both fully supported allowing gay scouts, along with so many other open minded people, which led to the changing policy. It will be interesting to watch the next generation deal with religion or lack thereof, as well.

I don't not believe... it's nice to think somebody is listening to my innermost thoughts, but then again, maybe it's just an invisible friend. It's always an ongoing debate.

They allow gay scouts now, but (unless I'm mistaken) not gay leaders... So not enough has changed IMHO. My son was in the Boy Scouts when he was little but I took him out when he was treated differently for not believing in god.